RH3 difference between SV-1/PA-588. Which one in Kronos-88?

[madbeatzyo111]

Excuse me to call authority on this, but I doubt you've played many grands intensively or you'd understand what I mean.

Piano snobbery from someone who is OK with RH3 on a Kronos? Sorry but this calls for a giant smiley

[Unknown2]

Excuse me to call authority on this, but I doubt you've played many grands intensively or you'd understand what I mean.

Piano snobbery from someone who is OK with RH3 on a Kronos? Sorry but this calls for a giant smiley

Maybe he is ok with it because he can adapt?

I don't disagree that some actions lend themselves better to instruments/music (pianos and organs in particular for my case).

I cannot say I am a concert pianist, though I have trained as a classic pianist over quite a few years now. I often arrive at a venue having never played the particular instrument. Sometimes you get something that takes little effort to play, other times I have to work a bit harder to get the result that I want.
For me it is not so much about the key action as using my skills in achieving what I want; be it a hymn, a folk song, choral piece, pop song or a sonata. If I can only achieve good music on one particular key action then I start to question where is the skill?

EDIT: Spelling

[jimknopf]

So here's my point. The Kronos' awesome piano sound is staggeringly incongruous with the hammer action with which it is mated. To me it is absolutely jarring to listen to that great sound and feel something equivalent to a Wurlitzer console under my fingers. Am I spoiled? No, I simply expect the action to be of commensurate quality to the sound produced. As an example, I think the SP250 is an excellent DP!

You all talk of adapting to the Kronos action, but it's not really "adapting" at all is it? It's more like lowering your expectations.

My expectations aren't lowered at all, because I simply feel fine with the action, allowing me to play BOTH pianos/ep sounds and synth sounds in a way I can handle very well. I don't exclude the possibility that it could be even better, but your description above ("something equivalent to a Wurlitzer console under my fingers") looks completely out of proportion to me. Have you ever played a real A200? Despite the difference the RH3 IMO certainly still has more in common with a real piano action than with that of a Wurly!

So I just don't swallow descriptions like "crappy" for it without contradicting.

[SanderXpander]

Piano snobbery from someone who is OK with RH3 on a Kronos? Sorry but this calls

for a giant smiley

You can call it anything you want, that doesn't change anything about what I wrote;
That every grand plays differently, even grands of the same brand and type. That a good player can adapt within seconds. That from your statements, it's blatantly obvious that you haven't played very many grands intensively. This doesn't mean that you don't have the right to an opinion on the Kronos action, and I'll reiterate that I recommend to anyone to play a keyboard with an action that they like. Your comparison of the Kronos to real pianos/grands can't be taken very seriously however.

Have you ever heard of the Fazioli system with magnets to modify the action, by the way? Actually, obviously not. Look it up sometime.

[cello]

Piano snobbery from someone who is OK with RH3 on a Kronos? Sorry but this calls

for a giant smiley

You can call it anything you want, that doesn't change anything about what I wrote;
That every grand plays differently, even grands of the same brand and type. That a good player can adapt within seconds. That from your statements, it's blatantly obvious that you haven't played very many grands intensively. This doesn't mean that you don't have the right to an opinion on the Kronos action, and I'll reiterate that I recommend to anyone to play a keyboard with an action that they like. Your comparison of the Kronos to real pianos/grands can't be taken very seriously however.

Have you ever heard of the Fazioli system with magnets to modify the action, by the way? Actually, obviously not. Look it up sometime.

Fazioli is not relevant to your point as it is a mechanical deviation from the standard.

But - I totally agree otherwise. Sometimes I despair at the angst about keyboard action. Currently, I play Grand piano (Bechstein), upright (Challen), Wavestation, Delta, Radias, OASYS - having played M3, Trinity, X5D and Triton, as well as my new JP-80 (coming soon).

There's no way on earth anyone can say any of these instruments are closely related in action other than that they have black and white bits!

Yes, as a player, you have to adjust to the action of the instrument you're playing. There is no such thing as a perfect keyboard action.

My wife has played cellos that are worth the price of houses (she played one valued at £1.4 million) and also those that are worth the same as a Kronos or JP-80 - you know what? As a listener, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference! Why - because no matter the action, she adjusted and made it work musically.

[madbeatzyo111]

So here's my point. The Kronos' awesome piano sound is staggeringly incongruous with the hammer action with which it is mated. To me it is absolutely jarring to listen to that great sound and feel something equivalent to a Wurlitzer console under my fingers. Am I spoiled? No, I simply expect the action to be of commensurate quality to the sound produced. As an example, I think the SP250 is an excellent DP!

You all talk of adapting to the Kronos action, but it's not really "adapting" at all is it? It's more like lowering your expectations.

My expectations aren't lowered at all, because I simply feel fine with the action, allowing me to play BOTH pianos/ep sounds and synth sounds in a way I can handle very well. I don't exclude the possibility that it could be even better, but your description above ("something equivalent to a Wurlitzer console under my fingers") looks completely out of proportion to me. Have you ever played a real A200? Despite the difference the RH3 IMO certainly still has more in common with a real piano action than with that of a Wurly!

So I just don't swallow descriptions like "crappy" for it without contradicting.

I do actually have a Wurly console (not sure if it's an A200 though) so that's why I mentioned it. Granted it's in pretty bad shape, but I would say the RH3 is closer to that than a Yamaha grand (which I grew up with). At best, I would say RH3 does a good upright impersonation.

Since you've obviously fixated on my use of the word "crappy" to the point it's coloring your arguments, I hereby officially take it back.

[madbeatzyo111]

That every grand plays differently, even grands of the same brand and type. That a good player can adapt within seconds.

I wrote this already in a previous post, ie I agree with you! Going from a grand to a console though takes a bit longer.

That from your statements, it's blatantly obvious that you haven't played very many grands intensively. This doesn't mean that you don't have the right to an opinion on the Kronos action, and I'll reiterate that I recommend to anyone to play a keyboard with an action that they like. Your comparison of the Kronos to real pianos/grands can't be taken very seriously however.

I really wonder how you could glean my entire piano playing history just from a few posts...or maybe you're trying to invalidate my opinion with a personal attack on my credentials. Fine, whatever makes you feel better. You've obviously pre-judged me and nothing I say will change your mind. Actually, how about if I changed my opinion to one that praises the RH3? Maybe you'll take me more seriously then

Have you ever heard of the Fazioli system with magnets to modify the action, by the way? Actually, obviously not. Look it up sometime.

Is this your smug way of implying that acoustic action can be changed independently of sound? Because you're helping to make my point. The Kronos doesn't need magnets to tweak its action; it can mate with ANY arbitrary action and retain the same sound--unlike the Fazioli which cannot tolerate anything more than a slight modification lest the sound quality change too much.

To clarify once more, I have no problem with the RH3 in and of itself! I think it's an OK hammer action. It's just that the Kronos deserves something better.

[SanderXpander]

I suppose my tone has been less than chique, I apologize for that. Why is it that discussions on internet fora always seem to get venomous more quickly than in real life?

Of course I don't know your entire piano playing history from a few posts. The reason I call your expertise on actual grand piano keybeds into question is because you made a few statements about grands and pianists that in my view don't stroke with reality. For instance that a seriously trained pianist would be intimately familiar with the actions of all high quality grands from major manufacturers. This implies that those actions are consistent between models, so I said that they are not. Both assumptions (the first you stated and the second implied one) are completely wrong from any experience I've had. To me, this automatically calls into question your expertise on actual grand keyboards (not electronic grand keyboards). That was not meant to be a personal attack other than one on this very specific issue. If I were to say that common grass is purple you are free to call into question my botanical expertise.

But it could be that we are just arguing semantics. I honestly don't care if you like or hate the RH3 keyboard, the only point that I repeatedly called into question is your comparison with an actual grand. I've already shown (I hope) that there is a huge variation between grands. The Kronos' RH3 is weighted, graded, and you can even feel the bounce of a real hammer just like in many real grands. Close your eyes and the bed can feel like a real grand, in my admittedly not so very humble opinion. Whether you LIKE what it feels like is an entirely different matter, and you're obviously most welcome to your opinion, even if you hate it.

[madbeatzyo111]

Of course I don't know your entire piano playing history from a few posts. The reason I call your expertise on actual grand piano keybeds into question is because you made a few statements about grands and pianists that in my view don't stroke with reality.

You can't assume that the pianists you know are the only types that exist of course. Just because you've never seen purple grass doesn't mean it doesn't exist. But as much as you think I'm wrong about the generalization I made (and I admit it was probably inaccurate to do so), just trust me that I have experience on good acoustics (grands and otherwise). Why else would I be so picky about hammer action???

I never said I hate RH3; I think it's an adequate action. I just don't think it's in the same league as the rest of Kronos. You say that it almost feels like an acoustic grand. Have you tried Roland's (G8, FP7, RD700) or Yamaha's latest offerings? To me those actions do a really good job of emulating a grand action while the RH3 I think is more similar to that of an upright. Again, nothing against RH3 (I happen to like an upright action for certain types of playing), but it's not commensurate with the sound of the Kronos--which is superior to even a V-piano! I guess the sound just highlights all the other things about the keyboard that are just so-so (action, build quality, etc.). It's not Korg's fault but I do hold out hope for an upgraded action in the future.

[SanderXpander]

I don't think it's a quality issue, but rather a taste one. But now we're just going in circles so I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree

[Kim]

This really IS a matter of taste obviously. But let me just say that I've always been really picky about keybeds. It took a couple of months of trying out different stage pianos before I chose the Yamaha's P-120. I was nervous about the Kronos RH3-bed, since I really wanted the synth for it's sounds and controls, but hated the idea of parting from my P-120 (I needed the money and space). After playing the 88-version in a store for 3 hours my worries were gone. Bye bye, Yamaha, and thanks for the memories... :´)

Of course I wish, I'd get my Kronos soon (I feel europeans have been neglected in this matter) and that the keybed is fine. I understand that some people have had problems regarding quality control, but I guess that isn't a wide spread problem. At least the demo instrument at the store seemed to be in very good shape.

[sani]

This is not the case for keyboard synths however. The sound produced is quite independent of the physical action of the keybed. I could MIDI up a nanokey or an RD700 to the Kronos, and just by tweaking a few settings get the exact same sound on both. So here's my point. The Kronos' awesome piano sound is staggeringly incongruous with the hammer action with which it is mated. To me it is absolutely jarring to listen to that great sound and feel something equivalent to a Wurlitzer console under my fingers. Am I spoiled? No, I simply expect the action to be of commensurate quality to the sound produced. As an example, I think the SP250 is an excellent DP!

You all talk of adapting to the Kronos action, but it's not really "adapting" at all is it? It's more like lowering your expectations.

I think it's pretty simple: the Kronos is a workstation with almost 2000 patches. Delivering the ultimate piano style keyboard to the Kronos would at the same time render it useless for hundreds of other sounds which couldn't be played in the way they are supposed to be played. The piano sound is not the only patch and for a lot of users not the most important one on a workstation keyboard. And it finally comes to personal likes. I (being a classical trained pianist) prefer a less ideal hammer weighted keyboard that let me also play other sounds well, instead o of having the ultimate piano style keybed which is useless for the vast majority of other sounds.

[Chriskk]

Delivering the ultimate piano style keyboard to the Kronos would at the same time render it useless for hundreds of other sounds which couldn't be played in the way they are supposed to be played.

The problem of this argument is that Korg uses the RH3 in their top-of-the-line digital pianos. Korg wants the RH3 to be like grand piano action.

[jimknopf]

So here's my point. The Kronos' awesome piano sound is staggeringly incongruous with the hammer action with which it is mated. To me it is absolutely jarring to listen to that great sound and feel something equivalent to a Wurlitzer console under my fingers. Am I spoiled? No, I simply expect the action to be of commensurate quality to the sound produced. As an example, I think the SP250 is an excellent DP!

You all talk of adapting to the Kronos action, but it's not really "adapting" at all is it? It's more like lowering your expectations.

My expectations aren't lowered at all, because I simply feel fine with the action, allowing me to play BOTH pianos/ep sounds and synth sounds in a way I can handle very well. I don't exclude the possibility that it could be even better, but your description above ("something equivalent to a Wurlitzer console under my fingers") looks completely out of proportion to me. Have you ever played a real A200? Despite the difference the RH3 IMO certainly still has more in common with a real piano action than with that of a Wurly!

So I just don't swallow descriptions like "crappy" for it without contradicting.

I do actually have a Wurly console (not sure if it's an A200 though) so that's why I mentioned it. Granted it's in pretty bad shape, but I would say the RH3 is closer to that than a Yamaha grand (which I grew up with). At best, I would say RH3 does a good upright impersonation.

Since you've obviously fixated on my use of the word "crappy" to the point it's coloring your arguments, I hereby officially take it back.

Sorry, but you won't get away with this one. I have played enough Wurlys to regard your comparison of the RH3 as being close to a Wurly's key action simply as an indication of incompetent judgement: this isn't even debatable from my view. Same counts for some other remarks which raised doubts for others in this thread as well: they don't raise trust into your judgements.

[PianoManChuck]

This entire thread has become a waste of time. I'm removing myself from being notified of updates on this thread as its not even worth my time reading it. It seems the dissatisfied person argues just for the sake of argument. Sorry, just no longer an informative thread.