RH3 difference between SV-1/PA-588. Which one in Kronos-88?

[PinkFloydDudi]

Delivering the ultimate piano style keyboard to the Kronos would at the same time render it useless for hundreds of other sounds which couldn't be played in the way they are supposed to be played.

The problem of this argument is that Korg uses the RH3 in their top-of-the-line digital pianos. Korg wants the RH3 to be like grand piano action.

We aren't talking about digital pianos. I think your statement would hold much more water if we were referring to a digital piano. Too many people are comparing the RH3 to a grand acoustic piano!! I have thousands of other sounds I want to play on it. I love the RH3 response when I'm using the epianos, or the wurly sounds. I love that I can slide (glissando) much nicer on the RH3 keybed for organs than I could with an actual grand piano keyset.

The RH3 is versatile, which is what is needed on a workstation.

Sorry, but you won't get away with this one. I have played enough Wurlys to regard your comparison of the RH3 as being close to a Wurly's key action simply as an indication of incompetent judgement: this isn't even debatable from my view. Same counts for some other remarks which raised doubts for others in this thread as well: they don't raise trust into your judgements.

I've played a few many times as well...and no the RH3 is not closer to a Wurly. If that is your assessment, jimknopf is correct in subtly saying you don't know what you are talking about.

This entire thread has become a waste of time. I'm removing myself from being notified of updates on this thread as its not even worth my time reading it. It seems the dissatisfied person argues just for the sake of argument. Sorry, just no longer an informative thread.

+1

[madbeatzyo111]

Sorry, but you won't get away with this one. I have played enough Wurlys to regard your comparison of the RH3 as being close to a Wurly's key action simply as an indication of incompetent judgement: this isn't even debatable from my view. Same counts for some other remarks which raised doubts for others in this thread as well: they don't raise trust into your judgements.

Hold on. I never said RH3 is at all similar to the Wurly. I said between a Wurly and a Yamaha grand, the RH3 is closer to the Wurly.

Here's an illustration:

Wurly--------------RH3-----------------------Yamaha

Technically speaking, the smaller vertical key displacement bears this out at least.

[madbeatzyo111]

I understand that you guys like the RH3 for EPs and easier glissandos, etc. Does this mean you are acknowledging that RH3 is an intermediate action, that it is not a true grand hammer action? Roland and Yamaha don't use an intermediate action on their flagship 88 key workstations; they use their best grand hammer action. I guess people who use those keyboards can't play EP and glissandos as well then???

My purpose is not to complain or whine about the RH3, but to make the case that Kronos deserves a true high quality grand hammer action. Korg could sweep the entire high-end home/stage DP market with such an offering (beating out V-piano, CP1/5, etc.). By trickling it down to their sub-$1000 DPs (SP250, etc.), they could even take the low and mid-level markets too. I (and many many others) would certainly snap the 88 up without hesitation.

Obviously you guys love the Kronos the way it is now, and I'm not trying to disparage or attack your opinions, your judgmental capabilities or your musical training or your talent or whatever it is that has been used against me in this thread. I sincerely wish you guys don't take it so personally; the Kronos is just a tool as someone mentioned before. I just want to discuss its pros and cons and how to make it better without getting our egos involved. Yes I know I'm talking to musicians, but still...

[Bruce Lychee]

Korg themselves talk about the RH3 having a grand piano feeling. The action is weighted and graded. Grading is actually viewed as an obstacle in acoustic piano design and the only reason one would use it in a digital action is to emulate a piano. When I spoke to Korg the other day, they specifically talked about the RH3 being designed to emulate a piano action. How much clearer does it need to be that the RH3 is an action that is supposed to emulate a piano. The fact that it needs to be used for a variety of sounds doesn't change that fact.

Roland does the same thing on the G8. They just use their weighted, graded action from their stage pianos. On the other hand Yamaha uses a balanced hammer action on the XF, which is not supposed to be a piano action. You can feel that it has more bounce and is a weighted action built for cross duties. Compare that to the action on the CP1, which while not graded, does not have the bounce of the balanced hammer.

[PinkFloydDudi]

I understand that you guys like the RH3 for EPs and easier glissandos, etc. Does this mean you are acknowledging that RH3 is an intermediate action, that it is not a true grand hammer action? Roland and Yamaha don't use an intermediate action on their flagship 88 key workstations; they use their best grand hammer action. I guess people who use those keyboards can't play EP and glissandos as well then???

No, they absolutely can't. The action on the Kronos for a Wurly or MarkV is FAR superior to the action of any Kurz or Roland or Yamaha.

I think this is where the real issue lies. Some people want as close to a grand piano hammer-action as they can get...IMHO, don't ask for that in a workstation!! And just because other workstations do it, doesn't make it right. This is probably why I can't stand the action on most Rolands!
I do not want a full grand piano hammer-action keybed!

Do I consider the Kronos intermediate action? No. I consider it an awesome all-around action! Is it the best for grand pianos? Nope. Is it better than any other workstation for organs, ep's, synths, etc??? Yup.

I don't see this as a fault...I actually see this as a bonus to the RH3 action. Again, I think this is where the disconnect lies between those for and against RH3.

My purpose is not to complain or whine about the RH3, but to make the case that Kronos deserves a true high quality grand hammer action. Korg could sweep the entire high-end home/stage DP market with such an offering (beating out V-piano, CP1/5, etc.). By trickling it down to their sub-$1000 DPs (SP250, etc.), they could even take the low and mid-level markets too. I (and many many others) would certainly snap the 88 up without hesitation.

They could likely take the piano and epiano engines out of the Kronos, toss in an "RH4" (?) action, and make a $1,500 stage piano.

That isn't what I want for the Kronos though. It has to be more versatile as a keybed for a workstation!

Obviously you guys love the Kronos the way it is now, and I'm not trying to disparage or attack your opinions, your judgmental capabilities or your musical training or your talent or whatever it is that has been used against me in this thread. I sincerely wish you guys don't take it so personally; the Kronos is just a tool as someone mentioned before. I just want to discuss its pros and cons and how to make it better without getting our egos involved. Yes I know I'm talking to musicians, but still...

See but I feel your assesment of what the Kronos should be is mistaken (which is the same as I feel about the majority of what Bruce has complained about).

I think you guys are looking for a stage piano, but you bought a workstation!

You can't buy a BMW coupe and then complain about the lack of trunk space! Well you can, but the complaint isn't very valid IMO.

(And it usually gets personal when the same people make the same comments over and over and over again....ESPECIALLY when certain people are known fanbois of other manufacturers as proven by their post history in other forums. )

[PinkFloydDudi]

Korg themselves talk about the RH3 having a grand piano feeling. The action is weighted and graded. Grading is actually viewed as an obstacle in acoustic piano design and the only reason one would use it in a digital action is to emulate a piano. When I spoke to Korg the other day, they specifically talked about the RH3 being designed to emulate a piano action. How much clearer does it need to be that the RH3 is an action that is supposed to emulate a piano. The fact that it needs to be used for a variety of sounds doesn't change that fact.

Roland does the same thing on the G8. They just use their weighted, graded action from their stage pianos. On the other hand Yamaha uses a balanced hammer action on the XF, which is not supposed to be a piano action. You can feel that it has more bounce and is a weighted action built for cross duties. Compare that to the action on the CP1, which while not graded, does not have the bounce of the balanced hammer.

Bruce,
Electric pianos like the Rhodes Mark series also had hammers, which in digital workstation terminology means "graded".

Having a "graded action" is not unique to grand pianos. So by saying it is "graded" the only thing they are stating is that there are mechanisms in place which emulate a weighted hammer-action key. TONS of other piano-type instruments have weighted hammer-action keys!!!

I don't care what Yamaha does...an actual rhodes does NOT spring back up! So if their idea of doing that was to cross-duty that type of action, they got it 100% wrong. The only thing I can think of that really springs up would be some synths, and organs.
However the main thing about organs are their waterfall keys, allowing very easy slides!
The RH3 DOES have a grand piano feel to it. Notice the word "feel", not "exact replica".

I don't care if Korg did intend for the RH3 to be their grand stage piano keybed action....if that is the case, and I bought the Kronos as a stage piano, I too would not be happy!!

The fact of the matter is the RH3 is a much better cross-duty keybed than any other manufacturers workstation I've played on.

Again, I really think this is where the disconnect is coming from.

The KRONOS is not a stage piano. The RH3 keybed would NOT be great for a stage piano. I don't care of the RH3 was made to exactly mimic a grand piano - if it did, it failed. But what it exceeds at is being a versatile keybed for a workstation that has 2000+ sounds on it!

[sani]

Roland and Yamaha don't use an intermediate action on their flagship 88 key workstations; they use their best grand hammer action.

This is not quite true. Especially if we are talking about piano style keybeds.
For example:
the RD700GX uses an 88 keys PHA II Ivory Feel Keyboard with Escapement

The Fantom G8 uses the same keybed but without escapement. For a good reason. Because with the escapement and the way how the hammer bounces back it's impossible to play anything fast which is played differently than a piano. It's for example impossible to repeat very fast two tones on the same key. Even with the faster responding Fantom G8 keybed, one may run into problems by trying to play certain sounds in a certain style because the keybed simply doesn't allow you to do this.

As a side note: a friend of mine is a Triton Extreme 88 owner. He often tries out my Fantom G8 when he is at my home. He likes it very much. But he says that he can't adapt to the keybed. It's to hard and to slow for his taste. The Fantom G8 keybed is definitely more piano like compared to the Extreme 88, but regardless, for a workstation owner who plays different sounds, an ultimate piano style keybed is not always a must or simply the best option.

[Bruce Lychee]

Having a "graded action" is not unique to grand pianos. So by saying it is "graded" the only thing they are stating is that there are mechanisms in place which emulate a weighted hammer-action key. TONS of other piano-type instruments have weighted hammer-action keys!!!

I don't care what Yamaha does...an actual rhodes does NOT spring back up! So if their idea of doing that was to cross-duty that type of action, they got it 100% wrong. The only thing I can think of that really springs up would be some synths, and organs.

Graded is not the same as weighted. e.g. CP1

I think Yamaha is considering synths and all duties when using a balanced hammer on the XF. It is even more suited to synth and organs than the RH3.

[madbeatzyo111]

I think this is where the real issue lies. Some people want as close to a grand piano hammer-action as they can get...IMHO, don't ask for that in a workstation!! And just because other workstations do it, doesn't make it right. This is probably why I can't stand the action on most Rolands!
I do not want a full grand piano hammer-action keybed!

OK understood. I on the other hand do want the best hammer action I can get (which is why I like Roland, so we're consistent on that point). I just really want the Kronos to be it for me, is that really so heinous a wish??? But I understand now not everyone would want that. I guess I'll wait and see what comes next then. Maybe in the meantime I'll get some more experience playing on Wurlys and different acoustic grands since I apparently have no idea what I'm talking about when it comes those

(And it usually gets personal when the same people make the same comments over and over and over again....

Hey that's what a debate is; some talking points are bound to get repeated for emphasis or clarity, etc.

[Bruce Lychee]

The Fantom G8 uses the same keybed but without escapement. For a good reason. Because with the escapement and the way how the hammer bounces back it's impossible to play anything fast which is played differently than a piano. It's for example impossible to repeat very fast two tones on the same key. Even with the faster responding Fantom G8 keybed, one may run into problems by trying to play certain sounds in a certain style because the keybed simply doesn't allow you to do this.

You do realize the 700NX with escapement and tri-sensor is more capable of rapid single note repeats? On a grand pianos, unlike uprights, you can partial do partial release repeats, which are necessary for certain highly technical pieces. You can't do that on an upright. The 700NX allows you to do that. Escapement is more of an emulation of the feeling of the hammer release.

[madbeatzyo111]

Roland and Yamaha don't use an intermediate action on their flagship 88 key workstations; they use their best grand hammer action.

This is not quite true. Especially if we are talking about piano style keybeds.
For example:
the RD700GX uses an 88 keys PHA II Ivory Feel Keyboard with Escapement

The Fantom G8 uses the same keybed but without escapement. For a good reason.

I knew someone would call me on that But yes Roland and Yamaha have different variations of their hammer action, so apparently there was a conscious tailoring of action to a specific keyboard's purpose (DP vs general purpose workstation).

[jimknopf]

I understand that you guys like the RH3 for EPs and easier glissandos, etc. Does this mean you are acknowledging that RH3 is an intermediate action

This is what I said from the start, after playing my 73 for some days.
The point where I disagree is the piano playability: It's not a dedicated grand hammer action, but at least I can play piano quite well on it.

I also challenge the view of some in this thread claiming that dedicated, heavier, longer way hammer actions from Yamaha or Roland are at the same time easier to play for synth and organ stuff. Claiming that isn't just improbable for logical reasons, as sani pointed out for good reason, but is also far from what I have tested.

one remark: don't worry concerning the personal thing: I contradict in quite a clear cut way, where I think I should from my experience and view, but I take nothing personal, as long as we just talk about gear and the debate doesn't get bad willing offensive. I know it is hard sometimes to tell clear cut from heated, so just trust my feedback. I can take a punch or two as well, so you don't have to hesitate.

[madbeatzyo111]

Sorry, but you won't get away with this one. I have played enough Wurlys to regard your comparison of the RH3 as being close to a Wurly's key action simply as an indication of incompetent judgement: this isn't even debatable from my view. Same counts for some other remarks which raised doubts for others in this thread as well: they don't raise trust into your judgements.

I don't mean to rehash this but I just realized you probably thought I was referring to a Wurly e-piano, whereas I was referring to a Wurly piano The one I have is similar to this one, it's basically a mini-upright.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt ... BA&dur=281

If you had compared a Wurly e-piano action to the RH3, then yes I would also say you are totally bonkers Obviously I'm not an e-piano person or else I would have realized most peopl associate Wurly's with e-pianos, not pianos.

[jimknopf]

Well, at least we got that one straight.

"Wurly" is the common expression for an A200 (and aerlier and later relatives). You will hardly find a workstation or digital piano where "Wurly" stands for a Piano.

[PinkFloydDudi]

Having a "graded action" is not unique to grand pianos. So by saying it is "graded" the only thing they are stating is that there are mechanisms in place which emulate a weighted hammer-action key. TONS of other piano-type instruments have weighted hammer-action keys!!!

I don't care what Yamaha does...an actual rhodes does NOT spring back up! So if their idea of doing that was to cross-duty that type of action, they got it 100% wrong. The only thing I can think of that really springs up would be some synths, and organs.

Graded is not the same as weighted. e.g. CP1

I think Yamaha is considering synths and all duties when using a balanced hammer on the XF. It is even more suited to synth and organs than the RH3.

I never said graded is the same thing as weighted. "Graded" is the way manufacturers attempt to add characteristics of a hammer-action keybed.

Again for emphasis, this is not something that is only found in acoustic pianos.

Sorry, but you won't get away with this one. I have played enough Wurlys to regard your comparison of the RH3 as being close to a Wurly's key action simply as an indication of incompetent judgement: this isn't even debatable from my view. Same counts for some other remarks which raised doubts for others in this thread as well: they don't raise trust into your judgements.

I don't mean to rehash this but I just realized you probably thought I was referring to a Wurly e-piano, whereas I was referring to a Wurly piano The one I have is similar to this one, it's basically a mini-upright.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt ... BA&dur=281

If you had compared a Wurly e-piano action to the RH3, then yes I would also say you are totally bonkers Obviously I'm not an e-piano person or else I would have realized most peopl associate Wurly's with e-pianos, not pianos.

That makes much more sense. When you say "wurly", I immediately think you are referring to the electric piano which it is famous for!