Pianos don't sound as good in the mix as solo

TSUNAMI · Post by **TSUNAMI** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 7:23 pm

Don't forget the Master EQ on the Setlist Page that helps BIG TIME !!!!

Fred S · Post by **Fred S** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 7:39 pm

PianoManChuck wrote:
jimknopf wrote:The "too many variables" argument is right and wrong at the same time.
- right, because there are many possible band contexts, one or more guitars, different bass characteristics, whatever.
- wrong, because there is a number of piano sounds out there which do this kind of job quite well. The S90 piano mentioned above is something I don't like too much as such, but it is well useable for this purpose according to many users. Or remember the older Kurzweil tradition of delivering exactly that.

So there IS some kind of basic, tested mixing charcteristics for loud band context out there, as least there are working examples.

I for one would like to see two or three patches working well (in this sense) on the Kronos. And I still think experienced specialists should design this kind of basic band piano sound, being useable in many loud contexts for us, while we can concentrate on some fine tuning for each band.
From your argument that their are pianos/patches that DO work in a live band... sure, I can see where my argument is "wrong". However, any instrument, no matter what - including ANY choice of piano sample - should be able to work in a live situation if you have a knowledgable mixing person and/or the equipment to make it happen, which may include separate amps/cabs. I used to bring my own keyboard amps (Roland KC-500's) to live performances just for this reason alone!

My experience with sound guys have been mixed. We have a regular guy and that usually works out pretty good. But when we are using the house's sound guy, it's a crap shoot. Emulated/sampled accoustic piano is very sensitive. Not all sound guys get it. I feel better starting with a sound I trust and hope the sound guys doesn't screw it up.

aron · Post by **aron** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 7:57 pm

I think there is an art to making a piano sound that works across different speakers. The S90ES piano seems to work across a wide variety of speakers. The Kurzweil piano doesn't - it becomes extremely midrange heavy on certain speakers. The old Roland pianos had an extreme switching layer that was way too loud when you played hard.

Fred S · Post by **Fred S** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:11 pm

aron wrote:I think there is an art to making a piano sound that works across different speakers. The S90ES piano seems to work across a wide variety of speakers. The Kurzweil piano doesn't - it becomes extremely midrange heavy on certain speakers. The old Roland pianos had an extreme switching layer that was way too loud when you played hard.

Agreed. That's why the Kronos hasn't replaced my S90es on stage yet. When it comes to pianos, it seems we all develop a critical ear for pianos that non-piano guys often don't get. Most other sounds don't seem to be as easily effected by venue/speaker/amp/EQ variables. Either that or I just don't care as much

.

jimknopf · Post by **jimknopf** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:46 pm

And that brings us back to my request.

I'm not unwilling to do own patch programming, not at all, and I know one or two things about using an EQ as well.
But this is something quite demanding, with many parameters involved, which I would like to see covered by professional sound designers, as something that is really needed all the time by many users.

Korg has made a huge progress with these pianos! Why not complete the task with a few piano patches highly suited for loud band context? All I say is that this is no special wish, but something very fundamental, which will cause asking or negative feedback again and again, until a well working solution is available.

Zeroesque · Post by **Zeroesque** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:00 am

rrricky rrrecordo wrote:Try removing the reverb and any other effects. Dry piano will cut through and sit better in a live mix. Also try to EQ the piano so the mids don't get buried under guitars. And try to stay out of the bass player's range.

I like this advice. Generally speaking, forget bass w/ your keys, you are just gonna muddy things up (even though you think it sounds huge and powerful by itself). If you want to cut through, use an EQ, crank the mid and the Q, sweep it to find something that cuts so bad it hurts (hopefully with the guitars raging), then dial back the gain and widen the Q. Heck, you could do this w/ multiple mid bands. You can also compress the guts out of it depending upon your material. Is this your new classical recital piano patch? No. Will people hear you over your obnoxious guitar player(s)? Yes. And tell the soundman that your piano is important to the band and that he should be able to hear it like any other instrument. Chances are, you'll be the last channel that he even pushes faders up on anyway. Slip him a tip, lol. Mono might be your best option, as well. Oh, and always leave a little bit of volume knob during sound check...

Oh, and for you guys that already like a different piano patch (Kurzweil, S90, etc.), you're a step ahead. Just analyze the EQ curve compared to the Kronos in your favorite application. It should point you in the direction of getting closer to that cutting sound you like.

michelkeijzers · Post by **michelkeijzers** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:12 am

rrricky rrrecordo wrote:Try removing the reverb and any other effects. Dry piano will cut through and sit better in a live mix. Also try to EQ the piano so the mids don't get buried under guitars. And try to stay out of the bass player's range.

I forgot to mention this about the reverb. Mostly I cut the rever of ANY program/combi compared to the factory default. Remember, that if you play in a location it has its own reverb so you don't have to add (much) extra from your synth.

jimknopf · Post by **jimknopf** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:27 am

Zeroesque,
does this mean you are satisfied with your settings?

Of course I use the well known procedures outlined by you and ricky, but I still tend to end up either finding the result cutting through, but sounding way too unnatural, or not really cutting through. I'm getting closer step by step, but I would really like to audition something, which a very experienced piano synth sound designer has done for that purpose.

Fred S · Post by **Fred S** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 3:21 pm

Yeah, it's about compromising the quality of the sound to get it to cut through the mix. However, cutting the balls of your piano just to be heard isn't the best scenario either. The piano is featured often in our group, so the piano has to sound good, which for me is not thin and not overly mid-rangy. Most often, I find myself cutting bass and the cutting some mid range to make up for it. Again, depends on the venue and setup. So, what we may be looking to try to do is come up with a patch that has good sound to start with and can handle some tweaking to venue without losing too much quality. That's what I have currently with the S90es. Oversimplified...I know. But that's what I'm going to work on (unless someone else figures it out for me

).

rrricky rrrecordo · Post by **rrricky rrrecordo** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 3:31 pm

jimknopf wrote:Zeroesque,
does this mean you are satisfied with your settings?

Of course I use the well known procedures outlined by you and ricky, but I still tend to end up either finding the result cutting through, but sounding way too unnatural, or not really cutting through. I'm getting closer step by step, but I would really like to audition something, which a very experienced piano synth sound designer has done for that purpose.

This is where a physically modeled piano like Pianoteq 3 excels - in the amount and depth of detail one has to design a specific piano sound.

Having said that, for some gigs I'll go with the Motif XS, and simply dialing out the reverb on the Virtual C7 patches does the trick for me. I don't have to EQ it, as there are over a dozen sweet stock patches with a wide variety of harmonic content. Good for just about any gig really

I don't know why it's so difficult to get the end result you desire on your Kronos. Perhaps you have very high standards - a good thing!

aron · Post by **aron** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:35 pm

I haven't done it yet for the Kronos, but this is what I did for the past few keyboards - and it worked.

I set up the S90ES and the other keyboard in one room through the same system. I match the EQ of the "new" keyboard to match the EQ of the S90ES.

I've done this several times and it works. I end up with a piano that while it has a different tone and feel, matches up EQ wise and plays live similar to the S90ES.

I will try and do this soon and post it. It's just that the S90ES is not where my rest of the keyboards are. I made a Juno-G sound really great by doing this (I used the Roland piano card). I also made my PC3 sound much better. Originally I did this on my CS6X with the Yamaha PLG as well.

jimknopf · Post by **jimknopf** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:44 pm

Thanks, Aaron, that sounds helpful to me.
I'm in no hurry, so take your time.

Fred S · Post by **Fred S** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:04 pm

Sounds good Aron. When I get your results, I'll match them up as well and report back.

danmusician · Post by **danmusician** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:10 am

This thread is very interesting to me. I felt exactly the same way as the OP about my M3. It was very frustrating to me that the M3 pianos didn't even seem to cut through the mix of Korg's own Combis.

The Japanese Grands on the Kronos seem to cut through for me just fine. Curious, are others using the Japanese Grands and not satisfied or are you trying to get the German's to cut through?

I played the S80 for many years - also with the piano expansion card - and it always seemed to cut through very well. I got so used to that sound that it took my ear awhile to adjust to the timbres on the M3. The Kronos seems to the best of both worlds to me...

I do think that keyboard amp/monitors play a large part of this when playing live...

jimknopf · Post by **jimknopf** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:43 pm

I do use the Japanese Grand patches, and play through Mackie active speakers: so both can't be key to the problem.
I'm still not fully satisfied with the result.

Curios what Aaron might find out when he checks his S90 EQing.