Pianos don't sound as good in the mix as solo

jick · Post by **jick** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:52 pm

Laste7 wrote:I have good expierience with Pianos in band context with a Combi of Piano and Wurly. (Wurly about 30% of the vel from the Piano).
You will not hear the Wurly in the band context. But it supports the piano very well. That was a tip in this forum a couple of month ago, and for me, it works great.

Yep, my strategy as well, I use it all the time on my Fantom G. Eats up polyphony quite fast though.

JPROBERTLA · Post by **JPROBERTLA** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:26 pm

carmol wrote:
your kronos ha TONS of effects and features to enhance pianos,
why bother with external boxes ?
Some tips to give more "life" and energy to pianos:

-use the set list 9 band equalizer, rising a bit (2-3db) mid-low
around 400 hz and mid high
-double the piano ! in a program u have two slots,
try to assign other slot to the same piano; you can do this also in combi.
-use the compressor ! there are dynamic compressor,
limiter, multi band compressor... every stage piano should
have at least a bit of compression applied
-apply stereo chorus efx with a very very low frequency and depth,
or detune efx
-use parametric equalizer to selectively adjust some frequencies
-try exciter/enhancer <- this can hit the spot !
-try stereo tube preAmp modeling efx to add more warmth
-at last, try HD pianos instead of SGx

now I am just using set list equalizer + compressor

This may work to some degree, but the BBE is a time alignment processor more than it is an EQ or anything else. I seems to tighten and focus the sound more than actually change its tonal qualities.

jlc2296 · Post by **jlc2296** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:42 am

You have to use your ear and in the middle of your band rehearsal or show, try different piano types for different songs. The pianos have sooo many different tones. Mellow, dark, bright, power. In a loud band, sometimes you need to leave the pretty steinways out and find either a yamaha( japanese) or upright patch. I own a motif xf and a nord stage ex. My nord has all the nuance but none of the balls. It took me a while to realize the pianos realism isnt as important when you have a bunch of noise on stage. I normally listen for a sharp hammer-striking sound in my piano patch that sits overtop the mix. I did not find many in the kronos other than the jordan rudess patch, which is japanese. You can customize your own piano in the kronos more than any synth ever, its all in there.

Side note: I may be selling my nord ex compact now for a kronos 61. Any takers?

michelkeijzers · Post by **michelkeijzers** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:22 am

jlc2296 wrote:You have to use your ear and in the middle of your band rehearsal or show, try different piano types for different songs. The pianos have sooo many different tones. Mellow, dark, bright, power. In a loud band, sometimes you need to leave the pretty steinways out and find either a yamaha( japanese) or upright patch. I own a motif xf and a nord stage ex. My nord has all the nuance but none of the balls. It took me a while to realize the pianos realism isnt as important when you have a bunch of noise on stage. I normally listen for a sharp hammer-striking sound in my piano patch that sits overtop the mix. I did not find many in the kronos other than the jordan rudess patch, which is japanese. You can customize your own piano in the kronos more than any synth ever, its all in there.

Side note: I may be selling my nord ex compact now for a kronos 61. Any takers?

I agree that you only can hear the sounds (piano in this case) well when rehearsing (or in the middle of the band). And it might even change where members are located (can be different in the rehearsal room and on stage). I have learnt NOT to change relative volumes when one of the band members is absent because it changes the low/mid/high range mix and thus affect how YOUR piano (or other sound) sounds.

rrricky rrrecordo · Post by **rrricky rrrecordo** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:22 pm

jick wrote:
Laste7 wrote:I have good expierience with Pianos in band context with a Combi of Piano and Wurly. (Wurly about 30% of the vel from the Piano).
You will not hear the Wurly in the band context. But it supports the piano very well. That was a tip in this forum a couple of month ago, and for me, it works great.
Yep, my strategy as well, I use it all the time on my Fantom G. Eats up polyphony quite fast though.

You might also try a sine wave in place of the Wurlie. The SY-77 piano patch used this technique quite effectively. Just take a second piano layer and sub in a sine wave for the piano samples.

jick · Post by **jick** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:21 am

rrricky rrrecordo wrote:You might also try a sine wave in place of the Wurlie. The SY-77 piano patch used this technique quite effectively. Just take a second piano layer and sub in a sine wave for the piano samples.

Good suggestion, thanks. Gonna try that one!

jimknopf · Post by **jimknopf** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:38 am

Tried both, and the Wurly sounds much more natural in context.
A sine wave just doesn't fit well into the piano sound.

carmol · Post by **carmol** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:29 pm

The Exciter/Enhancer does not modify
only frequencies, but it also operates
on timings of the stereo signal;
try it, there a couple of preset
that are appropriate

TonyGen · Post by **TonyGen** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:14 pm

I have always increased high EQ and reduced low EQ when playing piano sounds live. For me it's the only way to make them cut through the mix.

My favourite piano for live is the stock HD-1 Oasys Piano with EQ settings as above. It sounds great and you can hear every note.

ronnfigg · Post by **ronnfigg** » Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:33 pm

Use stereo in-ear monitors and your Kronos will always sound great. If you can get a workable sub mix of the rest of the band into your ears, you can mix them to taste. I found this to be true with my Triton. It sounded great at home, but in a LOUD band it suffered. I realized this was amp limitations, physics of sound, amp placement, etc. There are just too many variables. In-ear or headphone monitoring eliminates almost all of the variables. Once you get it worked out, you'll never wanna go back. As for front of house- you'll always be at the engineer"s mercy. Let go of that worry and just get an on stage mix you can live with.

ronnfigg · Post by **ronnfigg** » Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:42 pm

PS-with good in-ears you'll be protecting your hearing. And you don't need a big investment either. Your set up may have an option for headphone monitoring and you can hook up a decent set of IEMs as long as you don't need to move around any great distance on stage.

ronnfigg · Post by **ronnfigg** » Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:54 pm

And another thing... as far as "cutting through the mix" goes- your on stage "mix" is not necessarily what is getting out to the crowd, even in a small venue. Try this. At soundcheck, run a sequence on the Kronos and ask the band to jam along. The get out into the "audience" and walk around. If your Kronos is not in the PA I think you'll see that you you keys disappear at different point in the room. If you are in the PA- you might still be surprised! Audio and sound is a vary complex situation in large environments. Again, pray that you have a good FOH tech and realize you'll NEVER really know what the mix sounds like (unless you have a mobile controller).

ronnfigg · Post by **ronnfigg** » Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:58 pm

Petekey, tyou should list the gear you have, the band configuration, type of music, what you use to monitor, etc. The best bet for me is to stay away from getting too technical and adding all kinds of gear.

ronnfigg · Post by **ronnfigg** » Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:07 pm

RonF has a good point (as all Rons do), you need to find you place. If you think you're not cutting through the mix- play at the top of the keyboard. Most other instruments are no where near there. Get near middle C and you are in the guitar domain. GOOD LUCK! Go too low and you're gonna piss the bass player off! Everything has it's "place" in the "Mix".

rrricky rrrecordo · Post by **rrricky rrrecordo** » Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:58 pm

jimknopf wrote:Tried both, and the Wurly sounds much more natural in context.
A sine wave just doesn't fit well into the piano sound.

You need to set the velocity curve of the sine wave so there's plenty at the bottom end of the keyboard and almost nothing at the top

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