Music Notation Software

[PianoManChuck]

Thanks everyone! I see there's a lot to learn here. Kevin, you make it sound like notation software is just in its infancy, and for what I want to do (and in many other ways) it probably is.

Currently, for non-orchestral stuff (songs with 2 to 4 voices), I just use a software sequencer to record the audio in realtime as I play it for each instrument, then mix it down and voila! Ideally, I'd love to be able to do that for all the parts of an orchestra and then click "Notate" and have the software translate all that to MIDI and then on to perfectly written musical notation. But we don't have that technology yet I really do prefer recording audio instead of MIDI (less setup, more control of the sound, etc... but at a cost of not being able to change anything other than with punch in/out). If I didn't need musical notation, I'd never use MIDI at all!

So the plan would be to have Sibelius (most likely) capture the MIDI of my realtime playing for each of the orchestral instruments, and then manually fix up the notation and print it out so that it could be handed to a conductor. It seems like I wouldn't need to leave the Sibelius environment for that.

Finale has what's called the "Garritan Sound Library" which sounds impressive! But of course that's not part of the demo, and neither is the huge sound library of Sibelius! Maybe the Kronos can be used to more accurately produce the orchestra, I don't know. The bottom line is the music notation (for conductor and members of the orchestra), but also a decent sounding demo of what it should all sound like!

[runningman67]

That is some project Chuck. I think your stationary shop (paper supplier) is going to like you alot.

If anyone can do it, you can. You seem to be blessed with patience, as well as talent.

Let us know how you getting along.

[Sam CA]

Thanks everyone! I see there's a lot to learn here. Kevin, you make it sound like notation software is just in its infancy, and for what I want to do (and in many other ways) it probably is.

Currently, for non-orchestral stuff (songs with 2 to 4 voices), I just use a software sequencer to record the audio in realtime as I play it for each instrument, then mix it down and voila! Ideally, I'd love to be able to do that for all the parts of an orchestra and then click "Notate" and have the software translate all that to MIDI and then on to perfectly written musical notation. But we don't have that technology yet I really do prefer recording audio instead of MIDI (less setup, more control of the sound, etc... but at a cost of not being able to change anything other than with punch in/out). If I didn't need musical notation, I'd never use MIDI at all!

So the plan would be to have Sibelius (most likely) capture the MIDI of my realtime playing for each of the orchestral instruments, and then manually fix up the notation and print it out so that it could be handed to a conductor. It seems like I wouldn't need to leave the Sibelius environment for that.

Finale has what's called the "Garritan Sound Library" which sounds impressive! But of course that's not part of the demo, and neither is the huge sound library of Sibelius! Maybe the Kronos can be used to more accurately produce the orchestra, I don't know. The bottom line is the music notation (for conductor and members of the orchestra), but also a decent sounding demo of what it should all sound like!

Setting up a midi track is only a click away! If you're using a keyboard to record your audio tracks, you wouldn't have more control on your sound than if you used a midi track! What type of control you're talking about that can't be captured via midi using a keyboard?
It's possible to convert a monophonic audio track back to midi, but that would make no sense at all in this case, unless you want to get a vocal or guitar track notated. You've got to work with midi for the fastest and best results. No matter how good you are, your audio performance will have so many inconsistencies that will produce wrong notes all over the place. Even with midi you would have to change the settings such that Sibelius could make sense of what you're trying to do. Still, you have to do whole bunch of manual edits depending on how complex the score is. On top of technical issues, this kind of project does require a solid knowledge of music theory, Notation,orchestration...etc .

For the sample pack , you can listen to this track that i'm currently working on. It's a praise song that i'm arranging for a church. The vocal part was recorded by an mp3 recorder and then I edited and harmonized it using Melodyne. It's only for my own reference, so the quality is not important, but the backtrack is based on Sibelius sample pack. (Reverb is not the stock reverb) It makes it much more pleasant to work with the software notation, when you have better sounds. They are indeed inspiring.

http://soundcloud.com/middleeasternkeyb ... brary-demo

<height> <param name="movie" value="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.sw ... 6"></param> <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param> <embed allowscriptaccess="always" height="81" src="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.sw ... 2F32513306" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="100%"></embed><span><a href="http://soundcloud.com/middleeasternkeyb ... ">Sibelius sound library demo-praise song</a> by <a href="http://soundcloud.com/middleeasternkeyb ... </a></span>

[aron]

No matter how good you are, your audio performance will have so many inconsistencies that will produce wrong notes all over the place. Even with midi you would have to change the settings such that Sibelius could make sense of what you're trying to do. Still, you have to do whole bunch of manual edits depending on how complex the score is. On top of technical issues, this kind of project does require a solid knowledge of music theory, Notation,orchestration...etc .

+1 Yes, so true. It's just faster to enter everything in manually sometimes.

Here's free one. Cannot compare to Finale or Sibelius, but for lead sheets etc... it's ok.

http://musescore.com/

Aron

[jamsire]

Sibelius all the way.

http://www.sibelius.com/training/trainers.html

Jamsire (aka - Ernie Jackson)

[Sam CA]

Sibelius all the way.

http://www.sibelius.com/training/trainers.html

Jamsire (aka - Ernie Jackson)

I must admit that after using Finale for over 15 years, i used Sibelius once and I got hooked. Don't get me wrong, Finale is super powerful too, it's just with Sibelius everything is just right there and you don't have to do whole lot of menu hunting to get to something. For the most part, you just click on stuff and they get highlighted, or you can just drop the cursor somewhere easily. That wasn't the case with Finale or at least Finale 2010 and older. That's when i jumped the ship, so not sure how Finale handles those things now, but again both are capable of handing the most complex notation related tasks.

[Sam CA]

It's just faster to enter everything in manually sometimes.

Totally! That's why it's nice to know the keyboard shortcuts.

[PianoManChuck]

That is some project Chuck. I think your stationary shop (paper supplier) is going to like you alot.

If anyone can do it, you can. You seem to be blessed with patience, as well as talent.

Let us know how you getting along.

Thanks for the heads up, Lester! Actually, if you saw me waiting in some line or in some crowd or in rush hour traffic, you wouldn't think I was blessed with patience

[PianoManChuck]

If you're using a keyboard to record your audio tracks, you wouldn't have more control on your sound than if you used a midi track! What type of control you're talking about that can't be captured via midi using a keyboard?

What I was referring to was sound shaping... to get not only the voice that I want, but the effects that I want as well. For example, with the Nord, I can change how any voice sounds "on the fly" in realtime while being played. Also with the Kronos to a certain extent. Not that I'd be using Combi's for this project, but Combi's would be a perfect example of shaping a sound exactly the way I want to hear it... once that's done, its a cinch to simply record it as an audio track whilst being played in realtime. Another example is the Korg Wavedrum (which I also use from time to time) which has no MIDI capability... just audio outs.

It's possible to convert a monophonic audio track back to midi, but that would make no sense at all in this case, unless you want to get a vocal or guitar track notated. You've got to work with midi for the fastest and best results. No matter how good you are, your audio performance will have so many inconsistencies that will produce wrong notes all over the place. Even with midi you would have to change the settings such that Sibelius could make sense of what you're trying to do. Still, you have to do whole bunch of manual edits depending on how complex the score is. On top of technical issues, this kind of project does require a solid knowledge of music theory, Notation,orchestration...etc .

Unfortunate, but very true.

For the sample pack , you can listen to this track that i'm currently working on. It's a praise song that i'm arranging for a church. The vocal part was recorded by an mp3 recorder and then I edited and harmonized it using Melodyne. It's only for my own reference, so the quality is not important, but the backtrack is based on Sibelius sample pack. (Reverb is not the stock reverb) It makes it much more pleasant to work with the software notation, when you have better sounds. They are indeed inspiring.

Yes, that WAS indeed inspiring! The quality however, was not that great... which gets me back to my original point of more control by recording audio rather than MIDI.

[PianoManChuck]

I must admit that after using Finale for over 15 years, i used Sibelius once and I got hooked.

That's funny... because I tried the Demo of Finale for 1 day and was quite impressed... but realized the huge learning curve involved! Then I downloaded the Sibelius demo and immediately realized that the interface was soooo much more natural and intuitive, that this was indeed the way to go!

[PianoManChuck]

I think a bit more clarification is needed on what I mean by the recording of MIDI from keyboard:

Sibelius will indeed take in all MIDI note events sent to it, no problem - there is no technical or speed issue here. The issue is interpreting the MIDI data.

In the scenario used by media composers - as in - playing your performance into a standard DAW such as Protools and Logic with individual MIDI tracks assigned to different orchestral instruments of your sample library - capturing the natural MIDI performance from Keyboard into Protools and Logic is fine - and all MIDI data is recorded onto separate tracks (as well as you can play).

However - for reasons to do with lack of mapping from Protools and Logic MIDI tracks to Staves in Sibelius, transposing issues and so on, any Protools or Logic Multitrack session imported into Sibelius as MIDI will be rendered with many incorrect staves - with many of the staves showing the wrong Clef and the notes with ledger lines (for example a Bass Trombone played into Logic appearing on a Sibelius stave with a Treble Clef and rendered as ledger lines many octaves below). It is this sort of mis-translation that is very common.


Why is this important to you - because - if you are composing at keyboard as you propose - but want real orchestral pieces (as distinct gtom cheesy synth-orchestra pieces) - you will likely eventually want to record into a DAW on MIDI tracks with your sample library as plugins - you will not compose straight into Sibelius. Hence - such a MIDI translation of DAW MIDI Multitrack to Sibelius Score translation will become an issue. And - most especially if you are composing to picture - you will definitely need a DAW to manage the quicktime properly, to set up tempo maps and so on (yes Sibelius can do these but it lags in sophostiaction and nobody uses it for this, yet).


Now, if you are going to record straight into Sibelius - then such a translation is not an issue - though unless you have stunning timing, your performance into Sibelius will still be metrically all over the place and will need a lot of timing corrections (such corrections are also far easier to correct in Logic and Protools with their sophosticated quantise and MIDI editor capabilities). And as said - if you are composing to picture - you want to do that in Logic or Protools - and not Sibelius. And - it's not clear to me that Sibelius can handle vast sample libraries well either (yet!).

In a nutshell - if you are doing orchestral composing via MIDI performances - and especially to picture - you want to record your MIDI performance into a DAW as MIDI, not straight into Sibelius. And hence the translation problems are the issue.

Many orchestrators these days spend a lot of time fixing such DAW MIDI multitrack sessions imported into the likes of Sibelius - fixing Clefs, ledger lines, timings, and adding articulations, phrasing and dynamics - this is now common practice.

Where Sibelisu IS good - is if you already have a score on paper, you can play the score in - like a step sequencer - but using your keyboard to enter the notes - on a stave by stave basis - i.e. - one stave at a time.

But my broad point is valid - if you are expecting Sibelius to simply record what you play in realtime on a keyboard and expect to see sophisticated scores emerge - you will not achieve this. It is a lengthy and complicated process.

And - you need to think about - what are you expecting to record? straight from keyboard For example, are you expecting to record Strings as 'Strings' on Piano Treble and Bass clefs - or as Violin 1,2, Viola, Cello and Bass? All of this and a myriad of similar issues arise.

If you are genuinely looking to compose authentic orchestral music - with capable orchestration - then the issue is NOT Sibelius or Finale - the issue is your capacity to orchestrate or to think compositionally via orchestra - and you should largely look at Sibelius as the final step in the composition process - largely as the software to produce a score for the conductor and parts for the musicians. Beyond that, Sibelius is actually not needed - and you would be better recommended investing in excellent sample packages and record into a DAW MIDI Multitrack; and then separately give some thought and study into Orchestration. Remember - Sibelius is largely just a graphical rendering environment - it is not a compositional tool in the purist sense and has not reached a maturity yet to capture live and 'organic' keyboard performances as orchestral sessions - or arguably to allow traditional concert composers to 'think and compose' in the same way as they might do at an acoustic piano and 8-stave sketch score paper. It is getting better in all of these ways - but it is far from complete in these ways.

Kevin.

Wow! Thanks for the very detailed thought process you've outlined here! Indeed, I can see/understand your thinking... but from what I've seen so far, I think I can accomplish everything within Sibelius and a MIDI controller. I DO plan on playing each orchestral part via MIDI controller. Sibelius (as well as Finale) sets this up, as well as the proper staves, etc, quite nicely! I see no purpose in using anything else to record that, only to bring it in to Sibelius to tie it all together when it seems I can do all of it within Sibelius. This will at least eliminate any sort of indirect translations of importing MIDI that was output from another product. I do agree about using a specific sample library for orchestral purposes (Garritan, maybe?).

[Kevin Nolan]

Grand - delighted this will work for you. I don't want to be too preachy to you - but in case you are new to scoring and are genuinely heading towards developing scores to be recorded by orchestra - a few other things to keep in mind:

1. Entering notes into Sibelius is only the starting point. An orchestral player will play exactly what is put in front of them. So - if there are no phrasing, dynamics and articulation markings, the will not play them and will not accurately interpret what you intended when playing in from the keyboard. You have to indicate EVERYTHING you intend. So I strongly recommend you come to know intimately all articulation symbols for the instruments you intend being played and all standard music tempo, phrasing and dynamics markings. These are as important as the notes.

For example - you could literally have one note tied over 16 bars for Violins-1 and through articulations such as tremolo, or dynamics form ppp to fff have that note sound like a raging tiger or a mouse tip-toeing across snow. On the other hand, with no articulation and dynamic markings, the note would be played as a constant lifeless tone. So all of this is necessary in your score; and if you do not indicate them they will not be played


(By now you may have guessed I've learnt this the hard way - I paid for an orchestral piece of mine to be recorded by the Bulgaria Philharmonia Orchestra some years back but was not at the session). Only when I received the multitrack recording back did I realise how badly I had annotated the score and it sounded NOTHING like I had intended! For example - I put slurs over Violin phrases (cause that's what a Piano player does) and this caused the Violins to play the section Legato rather than using up bow / down bows and even detache as I imagined (but did not indicate) in sections.

2. Get to know what wind players can physically play (give breaks to Bassoon players - that sort of thing)

3. Get to know the ranges of instruments so you do not look for notes to be played that are physically impossible on the instrument (at least Sibelius indicates such notes on the score for you prompting you to correct them).


There are a range of practical issues like this that are not about entering notes easily - and most importantly is for you to be able to articulate in your own head what you intend to be played / heard and to be able to translate that into actual score markings. I've been learning orchestration in earnest for about 7-8 years, and the longer I'm at it, the more I realise (in concert pieces) that it's all about phrasing, dynamics and articulation - the notes are the necessary basis of the piece of course but in many ways they are just the starting point.


sorry if I come across a bit know-all-ish in this - I assure you I have bucket loads to learn and personally feel I’m barely scratching the surface of this area (and am still learning from every conceivable source at a feverish pace) - but am just responding to point you in the right direction but also because I'm in the thick of thinking about a lot of this stuff literally as we speak.


Cheers,
Kevin.

[cello]

Kevin is spot on re articulations/dynamics.

From the other point of view, Mrs Cello is a full time pro orchestral/chamber/solo player. I can't tell you how often she complains about bad notation... (keeps me honest though!).

Bear in mind too for orchestras to play, if you, the composer, don't indicate up/down bows, then the leader will decide them - and (regrettably) if the principal viola has fallen out with the leader that day, the violas could play different bowings.

Talking of violas and articulations...

How do you get a violist to play tremolando?
Write two tied semibreves and put 'solo' on top

[SanderXpander]

Kevin and AssyrianPianist, I realize this is becoming hearsay by this point, but I'm pretty sure my acquaintance has the whole VSL library, not just the Sibelius pack you get for "work in progress". His point in using Sibelius really is that it's just easier to sequence for orchestral stuff than your basic piano roll and articulation programming in the DAW. But I don't know if he then just lets Sibelius output midi to his DAW or whatever, I'll see if I can find that out.

[PianoManChuck]

Grand - delighted this will work for you. I don't want to be too preachy to you - but in case you are new to scoring and are genuinely heading towards developing scores to be recorded by orchestra - a few other things to keep in mind:

I am new to scoring (at least at an orchestral level), so your "being too preachy" is welcomed with open arms! I have no use for printed music myself as I have perfect pitch and can play just about anything I've heard... anything playing in my head can easily be transferred to my fingers on the piano without even thinking. However, I can't do that with an orchestra... I obviously have to put that all on paper for each instrument. So I welcome all the help I can get.... like I said before, I realize this will entail a huge learning curve for me.

1. Entering notes into Sibelius is only the starting point. An orchestral player will play exactly what is put in front of them. So - if there are no phrasing, dynamics and articulation markings, the will not play them and will not accurately interpret what you intended when playing in from the keyboard. You have to indicate EVERYTHING you intend. So I strongly recommend you come to know intimately all articulation symbols for the instruments you intend being played and all standard music tempo, phrasing and dynamics markings. These are as important as the notes.

I was already aware of this, but thanks for reinforcing this. I realize that an orchestra is the ultimate synthesizer, and that each player is playing their own "voice". For example, just like a synth, what I can control with finger dynamics (velocity level of key hit affects dynamics) needs to be spelled out for each instrument. Seems like notation software should be able to interpret this somewhat but apparently not.

(By now you may have guessed I've learnt this the hard way - I paid for an orchestral piece of mine to be recorded by the Bulgaria Philharmonia Orchestra some years back but was not at the session). Only when I received the multitrack recording back did I realise how badly I had annotated the score and it sounded NOTHING like I had intended! For example - I put slurs over Violin phrases (cause that's what a Piano player does) and this caused the Violins to play the section Legato rather than using up bow / down bows and even detache as I imagined (but did not indicate) in sections.

Now THAT's learning the hard way! I'm curious what it may have cost for that session? (you could PM me with that if you wish) as I didn't know that was an option... I have a local conductor in mind here who would be open to looking at my final composition.

2. Get to know what wind players can physically play (give breaks to Bassoon players - that sort of thing)
3. Get to know the ranges of instruments so you do not look for notes to be played that are physically impossible on the instrument (at least Sibelius indicates such notes on the score for you prompting you to correct them).

That goes without saying! Although I suppose that may not be obvious to some...

There are a range of practical issues like this that are not about entering notes easily - and most importantly is for you to be able to articulate in your own head what you intend to be played / heard and to be able to translate that into actual score markings. I've been learning orchestration in earnest for about 7-8 years, and the longer I'm at it, the more I realise (in concert pieces) that it's all about phrasing, dynamics and articulation - the notes are the necessary basis of the piece of course but in many ways they are just the starting point.

sorry if I come across a bit know-all-ish in this - I assure you I have bucket loads to learn and personally feel I’m barely scratching the surface of this area (and am still learning from every conceivable source at a feverish pace) - but am just responding to point you in the right direction but also because I'm in the thick of thinking about a lot of this stuff literally as we speak.

Thanks Kevin... your input is highly appreciated and respected! This is going to be both a huge learning experience and a very rewarding end result (hopefully). To look at the orchestra as the ultimate synthesizer - not just in terms of playing out their respective parts to form the whole, but a synthesizer who's unique voices/patches have feelings and emotions all their own (by being human) makes it the ultimate musical accomplishment (for me).