Korg Kronos and DAW - how does it work good?

clipnotic · Post by **clipnotic** » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:50 am

Some people here are thinking, that a sequencer update ... is not necessary because they can do all what they need for production with their DAW?

OK fine, so my questions are:

1. How do you compensate latency?

Kronos seems to have its own latency between 8-10 ms? And a typical PC has between 6 and 12 ms with a good soundcard. OK, so we have an entire latency between 14 and 22 ms if we exchange midi data. And if I want to send the audio signal from the Kronos back again to the PC DAW we will get more latency, right?

How do you fix that?

2. How works USB midi practically?

Is it possible to control 8-16 midi tracks with much CC ... over Kronos USB Midi and does it work good?

Is it possible to swab midi files from the Kronos over USB directly to the DAW PC ?

3. Working with midi files

If you export midi files from the Kronos and use them in your DAW with Kronos as a sound module, how do you fix the latency difference?

4. How do you use the Kronos without editor and plugin?

Thank you for answer!

blinkofanI · Post by **blinkofanI** » Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:57 am

No latency problems here(there's always some but not noticeble). At a buffer of 128, i have roundtrip latency of 8 ms. Recording at 44,1.

I have a template with 12 MIDI tracks going to the Kronos. The Kronos is plugged with old-school MIDI cables.

I return 2 stereo pairs of audio signal in my system through my audio interface from the Kronos.

I have 2 stereo Aux(sometimes 1 stereo and 2 mono) in the DAW for monitoring the Kronos audio(the 2 audio pairs going in the interface) while working in MIDI in the DAW. You could also monitor the audio through your interface direct monitoring features. But, if you put a track in solo mode in your DAW, the mixer of your interface won't comply, of course.

Works like a charm. See my signature for my equipement.

Blink

QuiRobinez · Post by **QuiRobinez** » Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:05 am

clipnotic wrote: 1. How do you compensate latency?

Kronos seems to have its own latency between 8-10 ms? And a typical PC has between 6 and 12 ms with a good soundcard. OK, so we have an entire latency between 14 and 22 ms if we exchange midi data. And if I want to send the audio signal from the Kronos back again to the PC DAW we will get more latency, right?

How do you fix that?

That's easy to fix, it works the same way as any other hardware synth. For PC you use your own ASIO Audiodevice. I'm using a Motu system with ADATS connected. Every synth has it's own analog connections to that system and is routed into the DAW setup.

I'm using cubase but sonar has something comparable. What i do is setup the connection from the audio device to the internal cubase tracks. Every connections has it's own latency which you can determine with a ping function (the round trip). You only have to do this once and then you save that in a template.

Now when you create a song and you record a track from the hardware synths in realtime (so you play it and record the midi information), then you activate the delay constrain button and you will get a non latency compensated signal (so in this case 8 ms). This is perfect for recording the midi tracks. Then when you are done then you disable the constrain compensation butten and then cubase (or sonar in your case) will check which synths are connected with their own latency roundtrip times and will do full latency compensation for all audio paths so that every vsti and hardware synth is 100% in sync for arranging or audio export.

Works flawlessly this way.

2. How works USB midi practically?

Is it possible to control 8-16 midi tracks with much CC ... over Kronos USB Midi and does it work good?

Is it possible to swab midi files from the Kronos over USB directly to the DAW PC ?

that's not an issue at all. Works fine.

3. Working with midi files

If you export midi files from the Kronos and use them in your DAW with Kronos as a sound module, how do you fix the latency difference?

there isn't a latency difference because the latency compensation of your daw solves this.

4. How do you use the Kronos without editor and plugin?

i've created a simple virtual gui device in cubase for the kronos where i can automate the standard parameters from the kronos like cutoff and resonance.

The sounds i select on the kronos hardware in combi mode.

I don't use the official korg kronos editor because it doesn't work on 64 bits daw's and it's performance is really bad (huge midi latency problems) . So i removed that editor from my system.

the virtual gui device is use in cubase looks like this:

clipnotic · Post by **clipnotic** » Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:05 am

First, thank you very much for your both good explanations!

I don't have Cubase and Logic but this could work with Sonar and FL Studio, too ... ok manually PDC in Fl studio doesn't work very good ..

With my RMD HDSPe AIO soundcard and its ASIO driver my best latency goal with Win7 is 256 and if I use many VSTi, I have to switch to 512. It's a good and optimized audio pc so I think that's a problem with Win7, too?

OK, so that is what we need for the Kronos:

- Cubase for auto latency compensation
- ADAT für Audio In because USB Audio is not possible with the Kronos
- qrobinez virtual gui device instead of the Kronos editor

Is that right?

Well, it seems that if I want to use the Kronos optimal I have to upgrade my whole pc system? With plugins I have no problems with it. My last album I created only with plugins there ... worked wonderful!

My current hardware I use connected with my RS7000 as a sequencer and not with the PC DAW - only for recording the summary from my hardware mixer ...

I'm thinking about buying a Sequentix Cirklon, too - to have a really tight sequencer.

The reason for me to think about the Kronos is to replace all this things ... but if I have to spend so much money for upgrades to use it good ... ?

If the Kronos sequencer could use as a full and good midi sequencer with piano roll ...

QuiRobinez · Post by **QuiRobinez** » Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:14 am

clipnotic wrote: OK, so that is what we need for the Kronos:

- Cubase for auto latency compensation
- ADAT für Audio In because USB Audio is not possible with the Kronos
- qrobinez virtual gui device instead of the Kronos editor

Is that right?

No, you have sonar 8, probably that's sufficient for everything. As far as i know sonar 8 also has latency compensation and in the latest version of sonar you could also create your own instruments for automation (just like the panel i've made). Basicly what you do is drag a slider or knob on a panel and assign the sysex code or CC code to it. Then you can automate it.

So as far as i know you already have everything you need, no need to buy cubase. The DAW choice is just a matter of personal preference. Sonar, cubase and logic are all great DAW's/

clipnotic · Post by **clipnotic** » Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:17 am

Yes, with Sonar it could work. I still have V8 but update is not so expensive ... I will look for that.

Thank you again!

.Jens · Post by **.Jens** » Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:16 am

clipnotic wrote: With my RMD HDSPe AIO soundcard and its ASIO driver my best latency goal with Win7 is 256 and if I use many VSTi, I have to switch to 512. It's a good and optimized audio pc so I think that's a problem with Win7, too?

I think you should get lower latencies than ~5ms (256 samples @ 44.1kHz), if it's really an up to date and properly configured(!) PC. Maybe with massive use of plugins simultaneously, you have to go to the buffer lengths you mentioned. But that should normally be only neccesary close to "plugin overkill" - like putting a convolution reverb as insert on every single track instead of using only 1 or 2 as send-return.

OK, so that is what we need for the Kronos:

- Cubase for auto latency compensation
- ADAT für Audio In because USB Audio is not possible with the Kronos
- qrobinez virtual gui device instead of the Kronos editor

Is that right?

I agree on the last point. But - as already said - latency compensation is standard for almost every DAW, nowadays. If the design allows ASIO, you will have latency compensation.
I don't actually see the point with ADAT instead of USB. USB audio works flawlessly. Well, not exactly: latency could be better with a dedicated ASIO driver. But it's in the acceptable range, as long as you are not forced to play "live" while at the same time routing audio completely from PC to Kronos and back.

Well, it seems that if I want to use the Kronos optimal I have to upgrade my whole pc system? With plugins I have no problems with it. My last album I created only with plugins there ... worked wonderful!

Why should you upgrade the PC system to work better with the Kronos? The one has nothing to do with the other.

And - I said it elsewhere - if you like the workflow of your PC DAW, stick with it - and maybe use the Kronos as an additional sound source.

The reason for me to think about the Kronos is to replace all this things ... but if I have to spend so much money for upgrades to use it good ... ?

You are telling this story for a long time now. You started with the same arguments even before the first Kronos ever was delivered to the public. So you knew in advance that the Kronos won't match your needs in terms of a sequencer. So - what are you complaining about?

You made the mistake to interpret the advertising in a way, that you seriously think the Kronos should perfectly match your preferred workflow - it doesn't. But that's actually no bug, not even an "issue", that's only a misinterpretation on your side. They didn't promise you a piano roll or other things.

Under the line, it's a matter of "take it or leave it". If you want to be constructive, tell Korg directly - maybe they bump a better sequencer up their priority list for V 2.0.

I actually see your point and understand your frustration - to some extent. But this discussion is stuck for a long time now, everthing is just said over and over again. And - to be honest - I am a little tired of seeing or reading your complaints every few weeks in different forums, playing still the same record with the needle stuck in the same groove. Repeating the same text over and over again won't provide any solution.

To give a last example: On really expensive cars like BMW oder Mercedes, it is still (2012!) not possible to listen to a CD while using the navigation system. You have to buy an extra CD changer, if you want both simultaneously. Of course, they could just spend a little flash drive for keeping the maps, as in every mobile navigation device - they don't, and I'm really annoyed to pay not only 10000s of $ for the car plus some 1000 $ for the navigation package, but still have to buy a CD changer. But - it's worth nothing to come over forums every now and then for a year and a half and complaining. It simply doesn't help.
If I really want such a car, I have to live with it, find a workaround, or buy another car.

clipnotic · Post by **clipnotic** » Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:24 am

@.Jens:

OK, I don't like your posts and I'm not interested about what you're saying. And you are a big storyteller, too! In the german forum as I asked about the Kronos, the Kronos was still available about one year - please look at the date there, when I posted!

YOU are a really useless fanboy and you don't read posts full ... so please stop answering to me!

And really, what do you think how I produced my album and my releases last year?

And your example with the BMW is as stupid like the rest of your telling and for people like you I don't spend my time!

QuiRobinez · Post by **QuiRobinez** » Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:18 am

.Jens wrote:I don't actually see the point with ADAT instead of USB. USB audio works flawlessly. Well, not exactly: latency could be better with a dedicated ASIO driver. But it's in the acceptable range, as long as you are not forced to play "live" while at the same time routing audio completely from PC to Kronos and back.

interesting,
are you saying that you can use the USB audio from the kronos together with a different ASIO Device on a PC?

As far as i know the Kronos can't do this, and you can only use one asio device at a time on a PC. (i know that asio4all can combine 2 asio devices to one asio device on a pc, but the latency is way too much that way).

So if you use more hardware synths in a PC daw environment then the USB audio route from the Kronos isn't really an option as far as i know.
That's why i'm using Analog inputs and ADAT expansions to get the amount of inputs i need.

but if you know a way to use the usb audio from the kronos then i would really want to know how to do this

.Jens · Post by **.Jens** » Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:31 am

qrobinez wrote:are you saying that you can use the USB audio from the kronos together with a different ASIO Device on a PC?

OK, I have to admit I'm not sure about more than one ASIO device simultaeously. That might be a problem.
But AFAIK this is not Kronos specific, but is a drawback of ASIO itself. AFAIR you always have to use some "dirty workarounds" if you want to use several ASIO devices at the same time, unless they share the same driver.

but if you know a way to use the usb audio from the kronos then i would really want to know how to do this

As a single device, that works, at least with ASIO4all. I mentioned already, that latency is not at optimum this way, but for almost any use case in a studio latency does not really matter, as long as it is compensated (which you should do anyway, even if it's just a few ms).

QuiRobinez · Post by **QuiRobinez** » Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:52 am

.Jens wrote:OK, I have to admit I'm not sure about more than one ASIO device simultaeously. That might be a problem.
But AFAIK this is not Kronos specific, but is a drawback of ASIO itself. AFAIR you always have to use some "dirty workarounds" if you want to use several ASIO devices at the same time, unless they share the same driver.

exactly

.Jens wrote: As a single device, that works, at least with ASIO4all. I mentioned already, that latency is not at optimum this way, but for almost any use case in a studio latency does not really matter, as long as it is compensated (which you should do anyway, even if it's just a few ms).

ok, but in most cases the daw is already connected to a 'professional' Audiointerface that has it's own ASIO driver.

But if you have a PC and only using a Kronos then indeed your suggestion would work. But that is probably the minority of users that has that setup and it's way to limited as soon as you have extra hardware to include in a daw setup.

clipnotic · Post by **clipnotic** » Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:58 am

qrobinez wrote:
But if you have a PC and only using a Kronos then indeed your suggestion would work. But that is probably the minority of users that has that setup and it's way to limited as soon as you have extra hardware to include in a daw setup.

That's a similar problem like in FL Studio 9.1 with the manually PDC for latency compensation. If you connect one hardware synth, it works good because you can route all the other channels to a sub mixer track. But if you connect more than one hardware machine with different latency then you have a problem to fix it manually ... In FL Studio 10 it seems they changed something about that but still it's buggy.

And that's a good point. I don't want to use only the Kronos with my DAW but I want to work with my plugins there, too! I want to use my RME soundcard because it's a very good soundcard ...

.Jens · Post by **.Jens** » Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:59 am

clipnotic wrote: OK, I don't like your posts and I'm not interested about what you're saying. And you are a big storyteller, too! In the german forum as I asked about the Kronos, the Kronos was still available about one year - please look at the date there, when I posted!

Listen, boy. I don't like your attitude, too. But if I answer you, I'm telling my opinion, as you do. But at least I try to be polite, constructive and factual. I'm only human, but I can't remember insulting anyone deliberately.

Your posts regarding the Kronos in several german and international forums range back to at least june, 2011, when the Kronos was not available in europe, and you are telling the same story since then. Again: I do not blame you for your opinion - just for becoming personal, your lack of respect for others, insulting people and being the opposite of constructive by telling the same things almost literally over and over.

YOU are a really useless fanboy and you don't read posts full ... so please stop answering to me!

You can be shure, I will - unless you offend me personally like you do. BTW: AFAIK we are both german - you should better have a closer look into the german penal law, which applies also here (as long as opponents both underlie german jurisdiction). § 185 StGB (public insult) would be a good start.

And your example with the BMW is as stupid like the rest of your telling and for people like you I don't spend my time!

Did I tell you stupid? A fanboy? Useless? Storyteller? No.

Come on, behave.

Nuff said.

Jens

PS: Its a pity there's no ignore list in this forum... At least there are other forums where at least personal defamation is not tolerated. I'm out for now.

clipnotic · Post by **clipnotic** » Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:05 pm

@.Jens:

you really need holiday - calm down!

And come on, we are adult or? So we don't need an ignore list - let's go different ways! We are not on facebook here? I never wanted a statement or a comment from you!

PLEASE ignor me PLEASE !!

And think about what I said: "you should do reading better"

I didn't said "you are stupid" I only said your example and your posts are stupid! It's a big difference and a matter of taste! You can read that, too in StGB ...

By the way, "fanboy" and "useless" is not an insult, it's only a finding ... and again a matter of taste, too!

And it's a big difference, too, to speak about things you know and things you not really know! And that is the same problem again like it was in the other forum! Well, there you had more fans ....

Look, the other users here gave me good informations and helped me very good with their explanations!

So, you should ask yourself why I said thank you to the other users and with you it's always a fight ... ?

michelkeijzers · Post by **michelkeijzers** » Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:18 pm

Maybe it's better to keep following posts more on topic (on the four questions asked in the beginning of the post).

It will serve nobody well to continue personal insults.

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Korg Kronos and DAW - how does it work good?

Korg Kronos and DAW - how does it work good?

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