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I know they are 2 very different things but can it be done?
AL-1 and MOSS...in MOSS you select Standard as Osc which will act similarly
to AL-1 but it will not...there is many things i guess that can't be done but can
the OSC be feed back on itself as in MOSS?
You see, Standard in MOSS has OSC 1-2, SubOsc, Noise and Feedback while
in AL-1 is different and no Feedback...i know its hard to explain and understand
but can someone shed some light on the following?

1. Standard
2. Comb Filter
3. VPM
4. Cross and Sync Modulation

How can they be achieved in AL-1? I know of Sync only and i can do it but
the others, is it missing parameters or am i missing something?

Now, the weirdest of all is Standard, you have a choice to output the OSC
to O1 or O1 while at the same time you have a choice to feedback on
O1 or O2...and on top of all you have the WaveShaping...not the WaveEdge
but it has WaveShaping...i am lost.

Thanks

Isn't VPM basically Mod7? Genuine question, I never dove into either one.

It is, thats exactly what it is, Variable Phase Modulation...but on the MOSS is
done diferently, there is 1 Carier and 1 Modulator only and they work different
then MOD-7...i know all of this types are in Kronos too with AL-1 but it is
done diferently and sometimes certain things are different or missing.

Basari: I've been wrestling with the same issues myself. I just acquired a Radias; my reasoning being that I have a MS2000 and the Radias has a very similar layout; plus the Radias uses 'the Oasys MMT architecture' like the AL-1 synth - so a sort of halfway house in my learning curve.
(and I've got a MOSS board in a Triton which again is similar to the MS2000 but offering finer parameter control and more sophisticated oscillator waves).

The main difference between the Radias and the Kronos AL-1 is that the AL-1 appears to be limited to 'standard' VA oscillator waves while the Radias includes 64 PCM waveforms (similar to the MS2000). The MOSS board IMO is more like the STR-1 in the Kronos.

One of the primary reasons I got a Kronos was the KARMA 2.0 and having now managed to achieve a degree of competance with that I've started to dive into the synth programming aspect (thus the Radias as a step towards understanding the Kronos). What I find interesting is that the Radias has an editor that (again IMO) makes both program managment and detailed programming a lot easier.

But, to get back to the thread topic IMO:
1) The MOSS is more like the STR-1 Mode
2) The Radias MMT is based on the Oasys AL-1 but in the Kronos the AL-1 does not include the full range of oscillator waveforms that the Radias has - (I don't know what the Oasys AL-1 has though)

I don't know if this adds much to the OP; just saying ...

BasariStudios wrote:i know its hard to explain and understand but can someone shed some light on the following?

1. Standard
2. Comb Filter
3. VPM
4. Cross and Sync Modulation

1. The typical analog-style oscillator you find in most VAs.

2. Comb filter is missing. This is a variation of the kind of filtering used in a phase shifter effect, except KORG did some interesting things in MOSS with it, using it as a sound source itself somehow. The only thing like it is the Band Reject Filter, which is like a comb filter with one "tooth," or notch, as the reject part is a cut of the harmonics of a sound at the selected frequencies, letting through more and more harmonics away from the notch frequency on either side. There is a graphic in the manual which illustrates this. Because there is only one notch, it's a rather weak effect, and so is rarely used.

3. VPM has been expanded into MOD-7, a full six operator DX7-like FM synth.

4. Cross Mod has become the FM parameter.

And there is no feedback path in the synth engine, which in digital synths is usually processor intensive. On my JP-8000, the feedback oscillator can only be enabled monophonically. Hopefully this helps too.

Like Sparker, I'm keeping my Karma with MOSS and Radias too, because they do a few unique things AL-1 doesn't. Of course AL-1 is extremely powerful, so I'm going to be spending a lot of time exploring its sound making potential.

Thanks guys, i was affraid of that too that MOSS can do things that AL-1
or Kronos can not even dream about. I understand all of those concepts
and how VPM, and CombFilter and Cross and everything works but NO,
it doesn't work like on MOSS. I have Trinity V3 with MOSS, Extreme with MOSS,
Prophecy and Radias in my M3 now...NO! No engine in Kronos can even come
close to these things when it comes to RAW Sounds, they kill Kronos in a beat.
its Sad.

Can you imagine, being able to shape the Oscillators in AL-1 like you can on MOSS.

The Resonance Osc is also a MOSS great source of amazing sounds. Mix it with any of the other Osc and you get crazy pad sounds. It took me a long time to get hold of a Z1 and i'm not about to let it go. We can say all we want about Korg's editor and release dates, but they're probably the company who brought us the most amazing synths in mankind history.

Blink

blinkofanI wrote:they're probably the company who brought us the most amazing synths in mankind history.

No Question they are...but the problem is later on they started bringin crap.

Well............... I think "crap" is definitely the wrong word to use.

Let's be honest. Every synth maker has both added to the power of their instruments, and taken features out. Roland created a beast in the JD-800, and made it even more powerful in the JD-990 module. Very nice synth engine and resonant filters. But in the Fantom line, that synth power was replaced with something which was slanted more in the direction of playing acoustic samples. It has only returned in part in the V-Synth, Jupiter-80 and Integra module.

I have found the 12db filters in my Kurzweil K2000 to sound superior to the ones in the PC3, though the synth engine has supposedly only been improved.

The Motif lost the ability to use the very nice expansion synth boards.

The nice resonant multimode filters in the KORG Trinity were lost in the Triton, and only returned in a fashion in the OASYS, M3 and Kronos.

If I had to choose between a Radias and an AL-1 synthesizer, I think I'd have to pick the AL-1, simply because it's so ridiculously powerful, has SO much polyphony, and does things Tomita was dreaming about for his Moog Modular.

Why synth makers do this, I have no clue. Their instruments have more working ram, far more powerful processors and better output converters than ever. And I agree that they need to work on making models of these venerable monsters, because there eventually won't be parts available to maintain them.

But I like the state of the art instruments now, far more powerful and better sounding than ever, as far as I'm concerned. Not "crap" at all. And this is when ebay and the used market is handy, for when you have to have that one unique synth that does certain things that nothing else does. This will always hold true, and why Minimoogs still have value when Voyagers are all over the place.

And yet, if you think you ever get to the point that you've exhausted the sound power of even ONE Kronos engine, you haven't programmed it enough. People are still creating unique textures on thirty year old DX7s and D-50s, and forty year old Moogs.

Most of these things you want are available, but not in a specific engine.

I think MOD7 offers the most potential because we can use VPM, waveshaping, and filters. It's a kind of modular monster beyond even what MS20Ex does.

Rather than saying "I want to use AL-1, now where is the VPM?", your workflow would better come from saying "I want to use VPM, so I'll use MOD7", or indeed "I want to model a feedback resonant oscillator, lets use STR-1".

It's all about choosing the right tool for the job.



I don't understand the comparisons to the Radias here, it has very little in common with MOSS (although I don't have much first-hand experience with MOSS either). Radias isn't really based on AL-1 nor and other engine, and it has been stated before that some algorithms used are very different (e.g. the Sync I think).
It might share a similar sound character though, and I can see a few parallels can be drawn with AL-1, but most of the time if I need to model a Radias sound I end up using MOD-7.

X-trade: Mea Culpa

I'd been looking up MMT and the page I was reading (Vintage Synth Explorer) mentioned the Radias as using the same MMT technology as the Oasys - I must have conflated that with the AL-1 engine.

I didn't intend to give impression that the MOSS was like the Radias, just that I thought (IMO) that these two technologies had their counterparts with a couple of the Kronos's engines (STR-1 & AL-1).

PS. Emphasis on the 'parts' in the word counterparts.

I am still down to MOD-7 basically on anything...even subtractive and adhesive.
The WaveShaping part of MOSS can probably be done with MOD-7 but not in the
same Manner, in MOSS you can shape a SAW Osc too while in MOD-7 it is always on Sine.

I agree with all of your points guys and yes most things can be done on Kronos
but it will be hell of a lot of work, workaround, tricks and time.

Personally I think it's wonderful when instruments are unique and have character through sound or features. The Kronos with all its engines is the versatile all in one board I've ever owned but that doesn't make me sell my Voyager, nor my Rhodes, nor even my Triton Extreme with MOSS.

I do get the idea of reproducing sounds accurately on a new board, I play a lot of covers and do a fair share of my own programming. But when you get down to specifics like this, one synth having a certain modulation option that another doesn't, or a unique filter... I cherish those differences.

It is those small differences...only the stupid Feedback missing in AL-1 it does not
let me recreate a Sound i want...and no, MOD-7 can not do that either.

Those small differences make the MOSS unique, and make it desirable as a separate synth. That doesn't diminish the Kronos, it's unique in its own way.

I would say stop spending time trying to exactly duplicate MOSS stuff on Kronos and instead figure out a way to utilize those parameters that make Kronos unique in a musical way.