What direction should Kronos take?

[Dany]

In addition to being much more affordable, the KRONOS has, so far, added a ton of new capabilities in comparison to the OASYS, including Set Lists, Smooth Sound Transitions, sample playback from the SSD via virtual memory, two new EXi (the SGX-1 and the EP-1), user sample banks, etc. Seems like a lot of development to me, but what do I know?

Almost all of those mentioned new capabilities could be added to the OASYS without any problems, if KORG had money and will to invest.
Some OASYS owners have exactly the same problem with Kronos: No money and will to invest...
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[Saxifraga]

I feel like it's necessary to address a couple of the posts above. ...
That doesn't translate into the KRONOS not being a "true development from the OASYS," though - in fact, quite the opposite! In addition to being much more affordable, the KRONOS has, so far, added a ton of new capabilities in comparison to the OASYS, including Set Lists, Smooth Sound Transitions, sample playback from the SSD via virtual memory, two new EXi (the SGX-1 and the EP-1), user sample banks, etc. Seems like a lot of development to me, but what do I know? ...

I really appreciate the developments the Kronos has undergone.

But why the heck did you not include the M3 Xpanded improvements in the first or at least second place? And why did the Krome get it?
Are your programmers not able to write code that can be transfered from one product to the other? Apple was able to switch from G4 to Intel a whole OS! You are not able to do a minor inclusion and testing of rather trivial features between branches of code? Or do you still do Assembler?
Are you at Korg aware that you are 20 years behind in programming technique? Why don´t you use a core2duo or i5 motherboard with WLAN and bluetooth instead of ridiculous USB2LAN adapters?

Someone in R&D screwed up. (exmpl.: You have to schlepp your Kronos to your dealer to insert 1GB. Why didn´t you do it inside from the start? 15,-€ extra? And those missing pads. Instead we are forced to buy nanoPads which are crap compared to M3 pads.)

Please post the percentage of faulty units. Would like to see if I was only unlucky to get a shitty keybed.

Sorry for being harsh but I don´t understand Korg product R&D anymore.
All those toy stuff and no major update. I would even pay for what should have been there in the first place (trivial M3 features).

I think Korg can thank .. that there is no real competitor at the moment who knows how to be innovative. Only retro stuff going on at the moment.

It´s ok if you don´t answer. I don´t expect very much anymore.

[Dany]

Someone in R&D screwed up...

...Sorry for being harsh but I don´t understand Korg product R&D anymore...

It's not KORG R&D (USA) who screwed up. They developed all the outstanding synth engines and effects, etc. It's KORG Inc. Japan, who is responsible for the antiquated user interface and OS structure, based on their 1980/1990 technology.

I think Korg can thank .. that there is no real competitor at the moment who knows how to be innovative. Only retro stuff going on at the moment.

I don't think so. Roland is a heavy competitor, offering very innovative and new developments with the Jupiter and Integra series with a highly accessible user interface and OS structure. I wouldn't be surprised to see a new Roland workstation, based on the Jupiter/Integra technology, very soon...
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[danatkorg]

As noted before, fruitful communication requires mutual respect; without that, there's not much to talk about.

[danatkorg]

Hey, I just noticed that my fairly new midrange Canon DSLR camera doesn't have a bunch of features that Canon's much less expensive point-and-shoots have had for years, such as a flip-out screen, face recognition, image effects (soft filter, fisheye, "toy camera" etc.), auto-shutter when a subject smiles, etc. Surely this indicates that something is dramatically wrong with their developers and their business practices. Maybe I should write a letter to them about how they might improve their development process to prevent such mistakes in the future...I'm sure that would be helpful!

[BobTheDog]

If I were you Dan I would keep posting about your disgust about that sub standard camera in every thread you can.

Also I don't see why osx is seen as so modern, still looks quite like the Next design I worked on 25 years ago.

[JPWC]

yeh danatkorg,

Thanks for input there, and your correct my new Canon i3Rebal does not have GPS like the less than 1/2 the price nikon AW100.

(ps. what the heck do I do with GPS on a camera anyway?)

[SimoneS]

Dan,

I think you are sadly missing the point, what SaxiFraga is talking about is "Software Enhancements". The flip-screen and other hardware features are nothing to do with what he's referring to.

Changes to Kronos or Kroms are nothing but software, which are "in theory" very possible. Therefore, askng the developers to produce a better developed code seems to be resonable.

You are trying to say again "Sorry, impossible, no can do", however, look at people out there (Heider on YouTube for example posted a video yesterday) which I have referred to on my new thread here "is it hacked again?!", which shows that the guy is pretty serious and still doing something in the background to satisfy the others despite of the Korg R&D view, he seems to have re-written a new set ot APIs (or something) demonstrated the Keyboard being captured and dealt with which is awesome, something I think no one has respected and tried your best to fight and ignore all the way.

All I'm saying is that, please for once, stop shutting people down and work with them, especially when these people were trying to do this at their own time and expense.

Taking Heider as an example to defy your (not possible) approach, look at what you (Korg) did so far (how you dealt with the situation, still clear on the old thread)... , and now consider what he has decided to do and looks like he's doing a good job so far.

Common Dan, this is a software change like we all know it, if you don't have the resources or interest, then why not letting others to help?, at the end, it might pay off one day.

I'm with SaxiFraga on this... Sorry!... referring back into your Cannon's example, there are group of people who did re-write the Cannon OS and done some prettty good results.

Also another example, if I have a PC and need it for word-processing and email-sending, then I can chose to install Windows or Linux on it (again, no more than a software change at the fraction of cost).

With that said, I don't think it will change anything within R&D, so, Happy new year to you...

[jimknopf]

... Sorry for being harsh but I don´t understand Korg product R&D anymore. All those toy stuff and no major update. I would even pay for what should have been there in the first place (trivial M3 features).

I think Korg can thank .. that there is no real competitor at the moment who knows how to be innovative. Only retro stuff going on at the moment.

It´s ok if you don´t answer. I don´t expect very much anymore.

I am certainly critical about some Kronos problems (hardware: fan, keybed, software: sequencer and some minor things), but I completely fail to see how you can talk like a spoilt millionaire child not getting his will. Your tone in this forum is often below the basic respect zone from my view.

I regard some of your evcaluations as dead wrong: The Kronos HAS received major updates for example.
And yes, what you got IS the best multi-sound-source synth and workstation around, significantly ahead of the actual Roland synth OS designs and much more flexible to use than anything from Yamaha (yes, they all make great sounding gear, no irony).

And while talking about possible improvements you even get the luxury of open minded partners directly from leading Korg staff like Dan and Rich here in this forum. Don't you you grasp that this is your chance to push user concerns in a partnership relation between users and developers?

I wouldn't even mind if you had the typical casual outbreak of anger, like it may happen to many of us now or then. But you seem to insist on being utterly "pampig" (German word fitting better than any English one) in much too many of your posts.

So come on, Saxifraga let's talk straighforward, but with mutual respect and effort of real exchange of different perspectives.

Please.


P.S. @SimoneS
I think that your comparison of a modern synth with an open hardware OS platform is a really misleading misconception. A synth like the Kronos can't be an open platform, and will never be. Ask that in other manufacturers forums and people will laugh at you. Kronos oS code may be written in Linux, but it is no open Linux project, and for good reasons, which even I as a user not working for Korg can grasp easily. Please don't interfere this discussion, which leads nowhere IMHO, into a discussion of realistic Kronos improvement.

[JPWC]

Let's see, the Fantom G sucks, the JP-80 sucks, the Kronos sucks, the Krome sucks. You guy's keep this up and you'll be sucking from the Motif, or worse, music will become nothing more than a plugin. We won't need keyboards anymore, because keyboard players suck. Suck on that for few minutes. All of the keyboard manufacturers will start making and selling guitar gear, Oh, they already do.

No one product will ever be perfect or complete, especially in the wrong hands. I've found that getting multiple keyboards is the best answer. Then treating your whole studio full of equipment like it's some giant modular synthesizer.

[SimoneS]

P.S. @SimoneS
I think that your comparison of a modern synth with an open hardware OS platform is a really misleading misconception. A synth like the Kronos can't be an open platform, and will never be. Ask that in other manufacturers forums and people will laugh at you. Kronos oS code may be written in Linux, but it is no open Linux project, and for good reasons, which even I as a user not working for Korg can grasp easily. Please don't interfere this discussion, which leads nowhere IMHO, into a discussion of realistic Kronos improvement.

Sure Jim, whatever you say,... there is no point to beg R&D further.

Which is why I mentioned earlier: My post will never change anything within R&D or Korg, ... therefore you too buddy,... Happy new year Jim !...

[jimknopf]

JWPC, they all have pros and cons - some more and some less.

There's nothing wrong at all with discussing that, or being critical of things users don't like.

Else I agree that we live in music gear wonderland and a lot of stuff from different companies is well useable for making good music.

What we talk about in this thread is something else, though:
IF Korg will still develop the Kronos - which would make a lot of sense not only for users, but for Korg as well from my view - what would be the most important points from user views? Simple as that.

@SimoneS
Happy new year to you as well!
I don't mind principal discussions, I just try to keep them apart.

[xp50player]

I can understand if a product does not perform as advertised, but no one can legitimately complain about something a product does not claim to do when they bought it. That being said, I think people consider the Kronos a long term investment, much longer than the ipad-of-the-month, cellphone, camera or other consumer level device, and they hope to have as much future upgrades as possible. What frustrates people, is when a much cheaper product comes along that has some superior features, and it is all a matter of software. Personally, I feel we are all spoiled in a good way, and I'm glad I am old enough to add up in my head the value of all those synth engines, and I could care about the the sequencer. The Jupiter 8 cost $13,374.04 in today's money; be thankful!

for new development for the Kronos, I vote for additive and blown-bore physical modeling engines. I think the product life cycle will be longer than with a halo product like the OASYS. The Kronos has a much larger user base to sell optional content to.

[Kevin Nolan]

I feel like it's necessary to address a couple of the posts above.

First, it's not correct that the Triton line always saw all features carried forward into the next model. In fact, the evolution of the Triton series saw an expensive model, the Triton Studio, followed by a less expensive model, the Triton Extreme. Various notable Triton Studio features were not found on its successor, including the built-in hard drive, hard drive recording, built-in CD-R/RW drive, sample expansion slots, ADAT option, and mLAN option. Of course, the Triton Extreme had new features as well.

Similarly, the base-model KRONOS is a whopping $5,000 less expensive than the base-model OASYS. That was an incredible achievement in making the OASYS technology more affordable. To get there, some of the more luxurious aspects of the OASYS were not duplicated on the KRONOS, including the folding screen and the fancy metal end-caps. Similar to the Triton Studio vs. Triton Extreme, the built-in CD-R/RW drive and drum pads were removed in favor of external USB devices, the ADAT option was removed, and the number of outputs cut from 10 to 6. That doesn't translate into the KRONOS not being a "true development from the OASYS," though - in fact, quite the opposite! In addition to being much more affordable, the KRONOS has, so far, added a ton of new capabilities in comparison to the OASYS, including Set Lists, Smooth Sound Transitions, sample playback from the SSD via virtual memory, two new EXi (the SGX-1 and the EP-1), user sample banks, etc. Seems like a lot of development to me, but what do I know?

Back to your regularly scheduled programming...

Hi Dan -

Thanks for contributing. I for one take on board all you say. Though I state my thoughts in a reasonably stark way - I never indicated that the Kronos is not an extension of the OASYS in many respects. I for one fully acknowledge at all relevant junctures just where Kronos has extended beyond OASYS - and am thankful for that development by Korg - I'm passionate about hardware synths and it's great to see continuous development and improvement.

However, despite the cost savings between OASYS and Kronos - and that is an important point to make - I still think it is important on its own merits to point out that Kronos is not a development on OASAY as a physical implementation - it is a step backwards (albeit an very understandable one due to costs). But costs aside, OASYS is a superior implementation. I'm not saying that out of trivial or childish competition - as indicated on a similar thread on the OASYS forum I spend countless hours at the OASYS and the advantages it offers are _very_ significant to programming sounds, and I would like to see future workstations take on board some of those advantages such as larger and adjustable screen, pads and better tactile controls, quieter fan and so on.

As to asking where Kronos will go from here is, while clearly none of us know what you in Korg are doing for the future, it is worth us users flagging that developments that from our perspective should happen often don’t - most notably the sequencer. The point being that aspirations for developments of Kronos could already be happening and they're not, suggesting less prospect for future big advances.

This is not unique to Korg I accept, and as I have repeatedly said - I fully accept the instrument as it is the day it comes out of its packaging and do not feel Korg owe me anything extra - so I'm not making this point from a personal gripe stand point but more as a general observation.


Finally, as a general suggestion, I'd suggest that the superior sequencer in M3 to OASYS and Kronos is the single biggest strategic mistake Korg have made in the past 5 years. Even on other forums and in reviews, I notice that many have noted this odd quirk, and it's the first time in a long time where Korg come across as less that serving their user base (whether we justified or not in that appraisal). Lets say - its a frustration and annoyance (and admittedly nowhere near the sort of bashing that Roland seem to regularly get). But I would hazard a guess that the sequencer issue is one issue that has annoyed more than any other with prospective Korg users, arguably to the extent that it would have been more cost effective, and surely far better for Korg's perception, to have implemented your very best sequencer in your very best workstation.

I'm guessing here but feel it is probably not possible for all sorts of reasons to integrate the M3 software into the OASYS software and hence that's why it hasn't happened, but I feel it has been a strategic mistake and one that Korg should bite the bullet on.


But make no bones about it - Korons is a significant development on OASYS in all the ways you mention - no argument there - but in terms of 'raw development irrespective of costs', Kronos is far from a universal development (in the same way that the O1W was on the T3, for example).

Kevin

[danatkorg]

Dan,

I think you are sadly missing the point,

Fortunately, others seem to have perfectly understood what I was getting at. Most of the Canon features I noted were software; the flip-out screen was in reference to an earlier post regarding hardware changes.

You are trying to say again "Sorry, impossible, no can do",

I have said nothing of the sort, as my actual posts plainly show.

You ask about hackers. I have no comment other than to note that it would be very, very wrong indeed to assume that you know the whole story.