Need to send Program Change twice? Bizarre

dhjdhj · Post by **dhjdhj** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:22 pm

OK --- I've figured out what's wrong but I don't understand the proper fix.

I connected a standalone device that can only send program changes to ensure that nothing else was being sent. I then experimented with going to the combi in question using both the UP/DOWN buttons on the Kronos and by sending Program Changes. I discovered that everything works fine when I switch combis using UP/DOWN but I got no sound.

Now, I don't use KARMA so I have the option "All KARMA/DT Off" checked.
I also have the "Load KARMA settings when changing:" off for both Program and Combination. I remember turning those off a few months ago because I was having a problem with a note that wouldn't turn off and I discovered that by disabling the "Load KARMA settings", it made that stuck note problem go away.

However, in the case of my current combo, those same disabled settings are causing this new problem.

So I turned those two options on again (still leaving "All KARMA/DT Off" disabled) and now everything works when I switch to the new combi via a MIDI program message.

But I now have the opposite problem again where a different combi has a stuck note, once I play it once.

Clearly, even though KARMA is turned off, it's still able to have some kind of impact on the programs and combis. I would really appreciate some guidance on how to stop KARMA stuff from having any impact on a program or combi, even if I have to change something in each program or combi that I"m using.

Thanks,
David

cynkh · Post by **cynkh** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:14 pm

So it was just a kranky Kronos?

dhjdhj wrote:Well, I'm not sure whose face needs to get palmed

I spent about an hour trying all sorts of experiments with precisely the same results.

Then I powered off the Kronos. When I powered it on again, everything worked perfectly!

This is both a relief (as I know it's not my software) and a concern (because it's a problem over which I have no control)

ed_f · Post by **ed_f** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:25 pm

dhjdhj wrote:OK --- I've figured out what's wrong but I don't understand the proper fix.

I connected a standalone device that can only send program changes to ensure that nothing else was being sent. I then experimented with going to the combi in question using both the UP/DOWN buttons on the Kronos and by sending Program Changes. I discovered that everything works fine when I switch combis using UP/DOWN but I got no sound.

Now, I don't use KARMA so I have the option "All KARMA/DT Off" checked.
I also have the "Load KARMA settings when changing:" off for both Program and Combination. I remember turning those off a few months ago because I was having a problem with a note that wouldn't turn off and I discovered that by disabling the "Load KARMA settings", it made that stuck note problem go away.

However, in the case of my current combo, those same disabled settings are causing this new problem.

So I turned those two options on again (still leaving "All KARMA/DT Off" disabled) and now everything works when I switch to the new combi via a MIDI program message.

But I now have the opposite problem again where a different combi has a stuck note, once I play it once.

Clearly, even though KARMA is turned off, it's still able to have some kind of impact on the programs and combis. I would really appreciate some guidance on how to stop KARMA stuff from having any impact on a program or combi, even if I have to change something in each program or combi that I"m using.

Thanks,
David

What Combi gives the stuck note? I am happy to try and replicate to see if that helps point to an answer.

jeremykeys · Post by **jeremykeys** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:29 pm

On that specific combi, you might try re-saving it but first make sure that the Karma on/off button and latch button are turned off.
It's just an idea.

Good luck!

dhjdhj · Post by **dhjdhj** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:14 pm

The Karma on/off button and latch are always off. That's the thing --- I assumed it is completely disabled yet clearly some settings are still having an impact.

For the combi with the note that stayed on, it was only one specific note (D above middle C), it didn't apply to other notes.

There must be something more general I can do --- how is Karma stuff connected to such things as volume or note control?

dhjdhj · Post by **dhjdhj** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:20 pm

It's a combi that I have edited significantly --- I will have to go back and see what programs are used in it --- but there must be some general places that control this stuff that I can turn off. I had thought I had done this but clearly there's still something that's impacting the sounds no matter that Karma is turned off. Perhaps turned off just means you get whatever initial settings are defined or something.
By the way, I'm using the very latest OS which I just installed this morning.

ed_f wrote:What Combi gives the stuck note? I am happy to try and replicate to see if that helps point to an answer.

dhjdhj · Post by **dhjdhj** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:40 pm

cynkh wrote:So it was just a kranky Kronos?

No, it seems to have something to do with KARMA, even when KARMA is turned off.

HardSync · Post by **HardSync** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:47 pm

Yes, KARMA still has an effect on combis when it's turned off. It really is a feature! It's called the Timbre Thru function. Some combis have programs that are assigned to MIDI channels other than the global channel. The Timbre Thru function let's you play those other programs via the global channel when KARMA is switched off.

To fix, you will need to edit the combi and reassign those timbres to the global MIDI channel, and then you can turn off all KARMA settings globally.

dhjdhj · Post by **dhjdhj** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:53 pm

I have programs on different MIDI channels in all my Combis. I'm basically using the Kronos as a synth engine, even if I'm not playing its keyboard directly.

I change the MIDI channel of each program through the Timbre Parameter page.
What does that have to do with KARMA? If I turn off Karma globally (which I thought I already had, by the way), are you saying that I won't be able to have a multi-timbral combi anymore?

HardSync · Post by **HardSync** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:17 pm

dhjdhj wrote:I have programs on different MIDI channels in all my Combis. I'm basically using the Kronos as a synth engine, even if I'm not playing its keyboard directly.

I change the MIDI channel of each program through the Timbre Parameter page.
What does that have to do with KARMA? If I turn off Karma globally (which I thought I already had, by the way), are you saying that I won't be able to have a multi-timbral combi anymore?

No, I did not say that. Many factory combis are designed / programmed to work with KARMA's Timbre Thru, when KARMA is switched off. So some of those factory combis won't play properly, i.e. you won't hear sound for some timbres. It could also affect some of your custom combis, because the default setting is to have the first KARMA module set to Timbre Thru. See page 472 of your Parameter Guide. If you read the guide, and perhaps, ideally, attempt to see how it works on your keyboard, then you will understand precisely what I mean.

Edit -- See also: http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... ht=#450367

dhjdhj · Post by **dhjdhj** » Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:50 am

This is extremely useful information. I continue to be baffled to some extent because these combis have been working for me for some time...I don't quite yet understand why they suddenly stopped working.

Thank you for both responding and pointing me at the other thread.

dhjdhj · Post by **dhjdhj** » Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:29 am

OK, I have dabbled with this stuff and I'm completely baffled and frustrated. If I disable the loading of programs and combis (as I mentioned earlier), then no matter what I do with those timbre thru options, I cannot get the Kronos keyboard to play programs that are on Gch. External MIDI events coming to programs on other MIDI channels work just fine.

Can someone perhaps describe an example template of settings (or unsettings) that will just allow the keyboard to play sounds of programs in any combi that are on (presumably) the Gch in all cases so that Karma is just completely out of the picture? This just shouldn't be that complicated to configure.

I thought at this point that (other than KARMA) I understood the Kronos reasonably well but this stuff is throwing me for a loop.

dhjdhj · Post by **dhjdhj** » Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:43 pm

OK - so for what it's worth, after playing around as HardSync suggested, I finally discovered that if I change the "Input Ch" in the MIDI I/O from Gch to an unused channel (15 in my case), KARMA stops intercepting whatever I'm doing on the keyboard.

Thanks for pointing me in the appropriate direction.

D

jeremykeys · Post by **jeremykeys** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:32 am

I'm sorry that it never occured ot me to mention this. I've just always changed the Midi channels to whatever it is that I'm using and have never had the propblems that you are having.

dhjdhj · Post by **dhjdhj** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:39 am

No worries, I'm just glad to have figured it out, it has been a nuisance problem for some months.

I'm curious however on two issues related to this

1) why did this problem only happen if I change combis via MIDI and not via up/down button and
2) why isn't the karma stuff completely bypassed if karma is turned off, or in other words, what does it mean to have karma turned off in Global Settings if its settings can still impact behavior?