Motif XF to Kronos sound translation -programming techniques

apex · Post by **apex** » Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:33 am

Any of you programming gurus out there got any tips for programming patches between these two monster synths?

For example sampling a sound from the motif and using it on the Kronos....the sound engines have some similarities but are VERY different. Just trying to see if you all got anything that you've learned when programming the two ROM based engines that could help out.

Thanks...

MarPabl · Post by **MarPabl** » Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:00 am

First, read: Switched from Motif to Kronos

Then, it's doable but if you really want to have the whole power of AWM2 on Kronos, you may need a Combi for each Voice on Motif XF when the following happens:
- The Voice uses more than 2 Elements. Because you can only have 2 oscillators on HD-1.

You can resample the factory ROM of the Motif XF directly to Kronos. You may create a new Voice without any filter/envelope/FX/etc. and then you take the raw sample. Even in the case of the flash content, you have access to every waveform on Utility mode so it's even easier to sample raw samples. This without considering you can open those expansions files with Chicken Translator and, with some work, convert those to SF2

Anyway, once you've got the raw samples, you "just" copy the parameters on AWM2 to HD-1 which will imply some translation process, but the concepts and equivalences are pretty similar.

Then you have to translate the effects system, which Kronos easily covers (regarding available effect processing and routing), but not without translation because Yamaha uses VCM effects and there are no easy equivalences on Kronos. This is a matter of trying and adjusting.

The last big effort you'll face are the arpeggios which are of great importance for some (mega) Voices. I've explained some possible way to import the drum track arpeggios here: Drum Loops for Kronos

Regarding the rest of the arpeggios, you're in some trouble. You need the KARMA Kronos Software to import those.

All of this will just make me think: wouldn't it be easier to just keep using the Motif XF (I miss mine

)

apex · Post by **apex** » Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:25 am

Thanks Marpal. I felt like you would be one of the first responders!

I'm not exactly considering getting rid of the entire XF... I really only after one or so sounds....trying to do something for a friend. It's just the power grand from the original motif. Yamaha gave it away for free in the inspiration in a flash content. At first I wanted to try and just translate the file provided by yamaha and load it into the Kronos....but it's not possible. They have the files encoded or something. So I just spent time tonight actually resembling the power grand directly from the motif XF. (What do you mean access to all the waveforms from utility mode. I have seen the "added" waveforms but not the default ones from the factory.)

The parameters assembly to be quite different though.... Unless they just have different names but "mean" the same thing. That may be the hard part of the translation....but no too difficult. But certainly possible.

One major difference that I hear is that the motif seemed to have used one sample for all the velocity layers.... But I may be very wrong on that. I know (or thought) there is a way that you used velocity to to make the sample "appear" to change. But I may be wrong.

I was trying to make the aeg (amplitude envelope generator) do it....but it's not working right.... Maybe it's the feg (filter envelope generator)?

I don't know....but I'm determined to make this work and sound good!!!!

MarPabl · Post by **MarPabl** » Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:03 am

So you're talking about the S700 piano

I was able to import the Inspiration in a Flash content to Chicken Systems Translator. Anyway, it's better for you to save just those waveforms and try the import again. As a remark, while the translator indeed opened the file, I got valid samples (even with valid loop points) with garbage. You may have to clean the import, but at least it's much work saved.

The S700 waveforms are indeed on the flash memory (or SDRAM) available for you to resample in raw form directly to Kronos. The waveforms that you won't find are the CFIII and the S6 which are part of the internal ROM. For those, you need to apply the new raw Voice process I described to get those raw waveforms.

Yes, I remember the Piano voice has several Elements for different velocities. Therefore, you may be able to use just one oscillator on HD-1 considering every single element has the same settings, except the waveform. You can use the 4 elements view on the Motif XF to give you a fast idea.

Motif XF has a huge variety of filters. Some digital, some analog, some mixings, different poles... You may need to adjust that to the architecture on Kronos, but I think Kronos gives enough flexibility to nail that.

Regarding the EG, yes you have one for amplitude and one for filter (on each Element) The tricky part is translating the "raw numbers" (translated to seconds/level) which may not be the same between both architectures. This is better done by ear. I don't think the LFO and Common LFO will have much usage for a piano... but you better check that.

I think the modulation matrix will be pretty simple, compared with the flexibility you have with AMS on HD-1

Check every single page for Elements view, so you don't miss any single parameter. Just use first the 4 elements view to filter out (no pun intended) similar elements (likely the velocity elements)

DoubleM · Post by **DoubleM** » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:06 pm

Hi MarPabl,

I´m not in front of my XF right now, but if I remember correctly, one of the voices in Inspiration in a Flash was that stunning "trumpet shake" I often use for horn sections to give them a "real horn section feeling". Did you get this one to Chicken Systems Translator? I´d love to have this sound for my Kronos...

apex · Post by **apex** » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:37 pm

No Marpal I'm talking about the actual powergrand from the original motif classic

apex · Post by **apex** » Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:04 pm

MarPabl wrote:So you're talking about the S700 piano

I was able to import the Inspiration in a Flash content to Chicken Systems Translator. Anyway, it's better for you to save just those waveforms and try the import again. As a remark, while the translator indeed opened the file, I got valid samples (even with valid loop points) with garbage. You may have to clean the import, but at least it's much work saved.

What exactly do you mean "clean the import"?

MarPabl · Post by **MarPabl** » Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:58 pm

Yes, AFAIK in Motif XF there are just 3 groups of piano waveform: CFIII, S6 and S700

From those groups, every single Voice is built with names which don't resemble the piano waveforms used. The S700 waveforms are added with the Inspiration in a Flash content. So, it's likely the Power Grand is built with S700 waveforms, but check that anyway

By cleaning the import, I mean you need to delete the garbage samples listed as part of the S700 waveforms (or whatever used for the Power Grand). You'll easily spot that garbage because it sounds awful when you audition it. Once you finish, you just save your SF2 and you're good to go

Also, take in consideration you may find some scramble: for example a clarinet Voice may have some piano samples.

If the mess is huge, try exporting just the single voice and waveforms from Motif XF and attempt the import again.

MarPabl · Post by **MarPabl** » Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:02 pm

DoubleM wrote:Hi MarPabl,

I´m not in front of my XF right now, but if I remember correctly, one of the voices in Inspiration in a Flash was that stunning "trumpet shake" I often use for horn sections to give them a "real horn section feeling". Did you get this one to Chicken Systems Translator? I´d love to have this sound for my Kronos...

I just made tests about the possibility of importing the Inspiration in a Flash file. I got some mess and therefore I didn't created the SF2

But I can tell you that it's possible for you to recover that Voice, with waveforms, and save it as a SF2 You just have to make some cleaning.

If the Voice has also ROM waveforms, you'll also have to Resample those directly from Motif XF

apex · Post by **apex** » Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:05 pm

MarPabl wrote:
DoubleM wrote:Hi MarPabl,

I´m not in front of my XF right now, but if I remember correctly, one of the voices in Inspiration in a Flash was that stunning "trumpet shake" I often use for horn sections to give them a "real horn section feeling". Did you get this one to Chicken Systems Translator? I´d love to have this sound for my Kronos...
I just made tests about the possibility of importing the Inspiration in a Flash file. I got some mess and therefore I didn't created the SF2

But I can tell you that it's possible for you to recover that Voice, with waveforms, and save it as a SF2 You just have to make some cleaning.

If the Voice has also ROM waveforms, you'll also have to Resample those directly from Motif XF

So the "mess" samples are what causes the translator program to crash? And if you delete those files don't you end up with quite a few missing waveforms?

Also are there "mess/garbage" samples throughout the inspiration in a flash set? Or just in the pianos?

MarPabl · Post by **MarPabl** » Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:01 pm

apex wrote:So the "mess" samples are what causes the translator program to crash? And if you delete those files don't you end up with quite a few missing waveforms?

Also are there "mess/garbage" samples throughout the inspiration in a flash set? Or just in the pianos?

In my case it didn't crashed. I just got some correct Keybanks, with the correct sample and parameters, all of that along with some awful Keybanks.

Anyway, that Inspiration in a Flash file is a huge one, Maybe that's the reason the import process get some confussion/crash... For that reason, exporting the single Voice along with the Waveforms can make things easier. Another possible source for the mess is that the Voice you're trying to import may use some ROM Waveforms which won't be available and maybe this is where the mess begins... Just try and check out.

And the last resort: recreating and resampling everything. In the case of the S700 waveforms piano, read this article: Motif XF Flash Memory Expansion Modules where you can see images with the screen where you can see every single Waveform on the Flash memory. Once you pick the Waveforms you need, apply a Job to transfer the waveform to SDRAM and then you get everything you need:
- How many Keybanks and the size of each one.
- The base key.
- The raw sample.

MarPabl · Post by **MarPabl** » Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:21 pm

Oh excuse me, the tool I've used is to import the X3V file is Awave studio

This one doesn't crash with the Inspiration in a File content.

apex · Post by **apex** » Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:28 pm

MarPabl wrote:Oh excuse me, the tool I've used is to import the X3V file is Awave studio

This one doesn't crash with the Inspiration in a File content.

and it also allowed you to delete those files that were "garbage/mess" files... with all the distortion etc...? and then proceed as normal?

MarPabl · Post by **MarPabl** » Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:48 pm

apex wrote:and it also allowed you to delete those files that were "garbage/mess" files... with all the distortion etc...? and then proceed as normal?

Yes you can edit the Programs before saving

This tool is only available for Windows. Get the trial and test how it goes for you.

apex · Post by **apex** » Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:20 pm

I already have it. It's just on my wife's computer. But for some reason things are still not working right.

And again I wonder this....if you start deleting the "mess" waveforms you end up with quite a few less samples... Seemingly like not enough to cover the voice range of the piano.... How does the conversion software compensate for those missing files?

If you could inbox me some instructions that would be great....