Dual Manual Organ

X-Trade · Post by **X-Trade** » Sun Dec 01, 2013 2:02 pm

So, What's the best way to do a dual-manual organ setup with the Kronos now?

I think we can use a combi with two CX3 programs. But they won't share the same rotary (nor chorus/vibrato), which isn't very authentic, even if you're going for the dual rotary sound.
We can disable the rotary in the programs, and use the IFX. But the IFX doesn't seem to have the enhancements that OS v2.10 gave us, am I right?

Additionally, I have my 2nd keyboard (currently my Karma, to be switched out with my waterfall manual custom built controller once I finish it), I'll want to use it for things other than organs in other combinations I expect.

Does anyone else do this? What method do you use?

Ps. how do you get non-legato percussion triggering? I thought it was possible but I can never find where I have to turn it on.

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Sun Dec 01, 2013 2:10 pm

Split manual in a program doesn't cut it for you I'm assuming?

EDIT: percussion triggering is always non-legato. You mean you want to trigger percussion even when playing legato? I don't think it can be done.

X-Trade · Post by **X-Trade** » Sun Dec 01, 2013 2:28 pm

Yeah, not really: not enough keys!

Well I have a controller and I like the dual manual experience. I used to gig a few times with an old midified Orla organ running two channels to VB3 on my laptop. That was quite a while ago now.

And yeah, retriggering percussion or whatever you want to call it. I'm sure someone said it was possible but I've not tried to use it myself.

Bertotti · Post by **Bertotti** » Sun Dec 01, 2013 4:55 pm

Can't you run the controller as an extension to the current 61 keys which will give you that many more then split the board to the ranges you want the two boards at? I haven't tried it yet but that is what I was going to do.

Is it possible to have two separate cx3 programs set up to use the same control like the joy stick, use it at the same time? Then even if you are on two different channels you could use the same controls for both? I don't know just asking. I thought I read about a midi box that would accomplish such a task.

X-Trade · Post by **X-Trade** » Sun Dec 01, 2013 7:12 pm

The control linkage could be done with Karma.

The problem with that is that it won't actually be in sync. It will still be two different rotaries and they could easily dirft apart like that I expect.

If using an IFX then the control linkage isn't a problem because the IFX can be independently assigned to a MIDI channel. Only need one set of switches for the rotary controls. That is what I've done before but it's a shame the CX3 rotary improvements haven't been replicated in the Rotary CX FX module. In fact surprising as I would have thought they would have been shared code.

Splitting the keyboard sounds like the best method but it is a workaround at best. I'm not sure how that will play with the other applications too as I said, I'd like to use the other keyboard as a independent controller for other timbres the rest of the time.

Fortunately the Kronos is staying in the studio for the forseeable future so it's not a massive problem for me. I just thought I'd stimulate that conversation and see if we can get it working.

Bertotti · Post by **Bertotti** » Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:05 pm

I don't know if this would be desirable or even doable but I will throw it out there. Running the control board on another cx program could its audio be routed dry back to the main cx and run through its rotary? Maybe not enough ins and outs for your set up? I haven't tried so it might not even be possible.

SanderXpander · Post by **SanderXpander** » Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:26 pm

I don't even know for sure that either would be a solution for you but I just wanted to comment how awesome I think it is Bertotti went from "virtually clueless" (if he'll excuse me for saying so) on the K to offering two separate clever potential solutions to a tricky and specific issue. Proves it's not impossible to master the K! And also that he's a very clever guy and some of us *cough*me*cough* were wrong to try to dissuade him from getting one as a first synth.

Bertotti · Post by **Bertotti** » Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:46 pm

Thanks SanderXpander but you guys/gals (making the assumption not everyone who has ever helped me is male) are the ones teaching me all of this!

For the record I am still pretty clueless and not up to date on the few things I promised others I would do and figure out, I will get there though.

HardSync · Post by **HardSync** » Sun Dec 01, 2013 11:47 pm

X-Trade wrote:The control linkage could be done with Karma.

The problem with that is that it won't actually be in sync. It will still be two different rotaries and they could easily dirft apart like that I expect.

Bear with me here, because I don't have a Kronos, but looking at the guide it seems to me that you only need one CX-3 program running because you can split the keyboard (and transpose if necessary) within the CX-3 module for both the upper and lower manuals, each with separate drawbar settings. Therefore using only one rotary for both the upper and lower manuals. Is that correct or am I missing something? If I am missing anything, I apologise.

I don't know how many keys you want/need to have per manual. If you want the full five-octave per manual setup, well the only way to accomplish that is with a controller. If you're using two 61-key boards and you're willing to compromise on the number of keys for one or perhaps both manuals, for instance only 3 or 4 octaves on a manual, then it's just a matter of having the controller send for part of the split and the Kronos controlling the other part.

X-Trade · Post by **X-Trade** » Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:12 am

Yes, you're right. You can split by keys.
In that case you'd probably have the controller transposed to an off-keyboard range and then have the actual split manual sound transpose the upper/lower zone so that they sound the same.

But this is not the standard way of doing a MIDI controller setup where you would use a different MIDI channel. The behaviour when using non-organ sounds ranges from undefined to downright confusing. For example the controllers on the MIDI keyboard will probably then be acting on the same channel as the Kronos master channel.

Also you have to start messing around with transposing all the other parts too.

As I said before, it's a viable solution but still very much smells like a workaround, which tend to have their own problems.

I'm going to have another try at this tomorrow and see what I come up with.

HardSync · Post by **HardSync** » Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:39 am

I get you. Two different MIDI channels, eh?

Right, then. If you're not using any KARMA GEs for anything (or at least have two GE modules free), I might be able to come up with a solution using KARMA's MIDI I/O and KARMA zones to re-route midi channels using two KARMA modules assigned to the same MIDI channel. It's still going to be a bit fiddly -- such things always are -- but I think it could work.

Let me know if you're interested.

X-Trade · Post by **X-Trade** » Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:51 am

Yeah, that's actually just what I was thinking.

It still has a bit of a pain in that Karma always has to be switched on. Not really a problem as such though, depending on the usage. But would definitely have to utilise module run switches and possibly scenes if you actually wanted to use KARMA for something else at the same time.

Again, I'll be able to try it out tomorrow..

HardSync · Post by **HardSync** » Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:54 am

Not sure, but you might be able to get away with just using the Timbre Thru function on the MIDI I/O screen and leave KARMA turned off. Give it a try. You'll still have to set up the zones in the KARMA though.

Bertotti · Post by **Bertotti** » Mon Dec 02, 2013 1:03 am

I haven't done any Karma studying yet but if it can accomplish this I will have to start a new line of study!

HardSync · Post by **HardSync** » Mon Dec 02, 2013 1:25 am

Well, I think it's possible -- we'll have to see how X-Trade gets on. The KARMA MIDI I/O routing is rather flexible. It's designed so that you can control KARMA via multiple keyboards on different MIDI channels rather than just using the global channel. But you can employ other tricks with it as well.

In theory, it's a matter of setting up the combi's CX-3 to respond on the same MIDI channel that the controller is set for, so for example let's say it's MIDI channel 2. The Kronos, typically on Global Channel 1, wouldn't ordinarily trigger MIDI channel 2 from its keyboard.

But with KARMA you can route a part of the Kronos Global Channel to trigger a portion of MIDI channel 2 via one GE module (i.e. In GCH / Out Ch. 2) And you set another GE module with Input Ch.2 / Out Ch.2 so that the controller can also trigger the CX-3.

Turn off the Run for the modules, adjust zones to correspond with the CX-3 split point as needed, and with a bit of Timbre Thru (or probably some Perf RTPs set for Timbre Thru In Zone if KARMA needs to be switched on), hopefully it will work. One CX-3 module, two keyboards on different MIDI channels controlling it.

This should also prevent the controller keyboard's controllers from interfering with the Kronos's Global channel. I think...