Korg Forums

Keith wrote:Thanks for the welcome back. Although here I am causing trouble already

I would NEVER consider you as making trouble my friend.
This is obviously a serious issue and although it doesn't affect what I do, I really hope Korg can do something about it.

I, like many, have also had keyboard frustrations and disappointments (particularly in my Yamaha days).

All the best

Pete

AntonySharmman wrote:

One more thing , I'm not a single customer representation for KorgPa products , I also represent hundreds of my products customers and fans
of my developments that will follow me in any Keyboard Brand I'll turn to ! Just for the story ...

Yes we will....!!!

Before I purchased my Le I did some research on the product and saw that they had removed the Advanced mode fingering in the Manual that I downloaded. Was that just an omission in the Manual by mistake? Obviously I came here to see what was said on the subject and a few lines indicating this issue were found. I contacted my prospective Dealer [who I trust] with this information and asked him to check it out. He did so on a pa900 and he couldn't find that 3/4 finger chords were a problem and so I went ahead with purchasing the Le.
Regarding buying another Brand, 76 keys on Tyros5 VERY expensive. Roland Bk/76 old sounds, standing still.. Other Brands not considered at all. So here comes the shiny new pa3x Le with 76 keys and at a significantly lower price than a pa3xPro. So here I am with the keyboard and I think it's great for what I want to do now and that's simply sit down and play... Don't do Sampling, creating styles that sort of thing anymore so more advanced OS of the 3xPro I don't really need.

I sincerely hope that Korg do listen to what we are saying here and I'm sure that it could be written back into the OS quite easily... Come on Korg let's have an OS Update with this mode reinstated ...

AntonySharmman wrote:

Dikikeys wrote:Personally, I think you are giving Korg altogether too much credit for being Machiavellian!

Contrary we give credits to our consumer rights and "shouting at their face" since they dared to put in circulation a Pa900 model demanding 2000 $ ,
without the 15 years most significant PaSeries functions like fills & chord modes that even Pa500 toy was equipped with !
They just muddied the waters with "Pa3X features" while we definitely can't play this keyboard any more the way we were used to !

Be sure they're silently watching , we managed to convince them for fills lacking failure and my duty is to lead you all realizing
this Colosseum programming failure in Chord scanning and as they'll realize the potential of users reaction then , they certainly know the solution !

One more thing , I'm not a single customer representation for KorgPa products , I also represent hundreds of my products customers and fans
of my developments that will follow me in any Arranger Brand I'll turn to ! Just for the story ...

LOL... I think perhaps you need better translation software, Anthony. That's a 'colossal' failure, not a 'Colosseum' failure...

And you seem to have confused my post, also. It is nothing to do with what you stated, in fact I pointed out that all of you getting in Korg's face IS the solution to this.

But the main gist of it was that I do NOT think that this is anything particularly deliberate on Korg's behalf. The list of OS mishaps, failures and poor design is long and storied. Attributing yet another misstep to some deliberate attempt to nerf the MOTL to bolster sales of the TOTL, while ignoring all the other mistakes (many of which have been corrected in updates) strikes me as a bit conspiratorial, and paranoid.

Were all the OTHER mistakes deliberate, too? Nobody piled on THEM suggesting that they were done to 'force' all you MOTL users to spend a ton more to get the TOTL model.

Perhaps you all should just calm down, and instead of piling in here with your tinfoil hats on, simply contact Korg repeatedly to demand the return of the feature? Send them an email once a week until it's fixed...

ALL OF YOU...

Dikikeys wrote:That's a 'colossal' failure, not a 'Colosseum' failure...

You didn't got it ... colossal is a Latin/Greek architecture term we "kindly" provided to your language !
But also this was on purpose targeting KorgPa developers in Italy that know exactly the magnitude of their Colosseum !
You should have remarked capital "C" before commenting

mrniceneasy wrote: Regarding buying another Brand, 76 keys on Tyros5 VERY expensive. Roland Bk/76 old sounds, standing still.. Other Brands not considered at all.

Not that I in any way want to sway your decision, but calling the BK-9 standing still and old sounds is doing a very cool little keyboard a disservice.

Several brand new features, including a Chord Sequencer (OK, OK, an old Roland feature, but not on any Roland product for over 15 years! Korg only JUST added it...), and 7 synced up audio loops that follow tempo AND key usable in styles and SMF's, all styles, loops and SMF's/MP3/WAV/AIFF backing tracks loaded instantly from USB stick, so essentially, a 64GB HD online at all times (and easily transferred to other BK-9's if you travel or have a problem with yours), not to mention a quite delightful 76 action (albeit not quite as good as the G70's but still very acceptable) in a keyboard that weighs a mere 20 lbs (less than most 61's) isn't too shabby.

And the sounds are quite massively increased, along with some of Roland's new SuperNatural sounds (similar to SA2 or DNC). Yes, they are a bit late to that party, but it can hardly be called 'old sounds'. Admittedly, I think the horn SN sounds need work, but the guitars are spectacular, TBH more playable and controllable than the SA2 voices. The drum section particularly has been beefed up enormously, adding a ton more percussion and drums from SRX cards and V-Drum products (drummer approved, in other words!), and for the first time in a Roland product, User Drumkits, so you can create a kit out of ANY of the drum sounds in the arranger. Add in a large number of totally new 'normal' acoustic guitar sounds for the styles and keyboard section, and that department is now on a par with Korg and Yamaha (they used to trail, now, not so much). Oh, and some of the best new grand pianos in any arranger.

Not to mention, quite arguably the best dedicated Hammond section in any arranger out there, capable of holding its own against Nord's and the like.

Sure, it's a bit rinky-dink in the display department, but once used to it, it gets the job done.

I think that you may have not dug into this little gem deep enough to realize what is new and improved, but I can assure you, as an almost fanatical G70 user for a decade, this is the model that made me stop using the behemoth G70, and happily jump ship!

Not to mention, all of this power and flexibility in an arranger over $1000 cheaper than any other 76 out there.

If the fingered mode is gone for good on the Korg MOTL arrangers (I hope it isn't), the BK-9 is the only 76 note game in town in the $2000-2500 range, and it also has a considerably improved fingered mode over the rest of the pack, needing three notes for a new chord when the sustain is up, but FIVE new notes for a new chord when sustaining notes. It seems such a small thing, but trust me, this is the easiest mode I have ever used that allows you to play almost completely pianistically and still have the chord recognition not freak out.

You know, while you are badgering Korg to return the old 3 notes fingered mode, why not try to get them to adopt this as well..? It really revolutionizes pianistic input to the arranger section!

AntonySharmman wrote:

Dikikeys wrote:That's a 'colossal' failure, not a 'Colosseum' failure...

You didn't got it ... colossal is a Latin/Greek architecture term we "kindly" provided to your language !
But also this was on purpose targeting KorgPa developers in Italy that know exactly the magnitude of their Colosseum !
You should have remarked capital "C" before commenting

I fear the Greeks, especially when bearing the gift of humor...

Hi Dikki I did actually try out a BK9, as I wanted 76 keys again, some time ago alongside a pa900 and I just didn't like the design of it or the sounds that I heard as compared to the Korg at the time. Was thinking of buying one that's why I had a look while I was on holiday and a Dealer was close by. So at least I did actually try one out for myself. Have had a few Rolands and this just didn't seem that different to me. Anyhow I much prefer the Korg OS to any other Brand to be honest.. That' why I just bought the Le as it was 76 keys and in my price range plus a 3 yr Guarantee to boot

Regarding the full fingering, I've turned off split mode and just play full keyboard. But as we have all said the option for the use of a split point and advanced fingering should still be on every keyboard for more advanced users.

kgardner53 wrote:

nitecrawler wrote:Excellent points Kim. I bought the Pa3Xle for its 76 keys and metal construction. The fact that it's missing a chord mod has not become and issue yet. I am a piano player so left handed full chords are not a big deal. What's important is 76 keys and metal wood construction. I play out a lot and plastic makes me a little squeamish. Being a $1000.00 cheaper is a big plus as well.

One of the best investments one can make is in a hardshell road case like SKB or similar. With 6+ in and out moves per week I find the price of one far less money and down time in the end!

So true Kim. I have a Gator hard shell case with wheels that will become the case of choice once I wean the Oasys from the stage. It has been my intention to go with the Pa3Xle and the Trinity on stage and keep the Oasys in the studio. Just got to work out the kinks, fwiw.

Keith, the BK-9 suffers from the same BS that Roland have foisted off on us for years... To be brutally honest, their style makers and voice design teams do not put anywhere NEAR the care into the ROM Performances that Korg, and especially Yamaha do.

If you pull up a stock Performance, hit the One Touch for some pre-programmed sounds, quite honestly it can be excremental at times! The balance is extremely heavily balanced towards the RH sounds (I turn my 'Balance' knob back to 9 or 10 o'clock to bring the RH into balance) and the balance between the style Parts can often be lousy too, especially the distorted guitars... While I applaud Roland's decision to hire the deaf and hearing impaired to work for them, putting them in charge of voicing the arranger seems not to have been a great one!

But, if you can get past all this, and just suck it up and edit the styles you want, and edit the Performances and OTS's to please those that still have two ears ( ), you quickly find what a gem it actually is, under the hood..!

And probably the most forward looking feature on the arranger, the 'Key Audio Loops' feature, which allows you to very simply and easily to add up to 7 audio loops, tune and trim them, then have them play in key and tempo with the style or SMF section (in truth, probably a bit easier than putting an audio loop in a Korg to be triggered by the Multipad section or sampler section as you don't need to timeslice it, it stretches or transposes automatically), you would never see this in action in a store, because those geniuses at Roland don't include ANY content to show the feature off!

So live percussion, drums, breakbeats, backing vocals, anything audio you want can easily run in sync with your style, and everything loads instantly from the stick, so none of those Korg 'load it first, then use it' bottlenecks that slow down spontaneity on stage don't exist...

Once again, I'm not trying to influence your decision (Korg have many great features too), but if you base your opinions on a BK-9 from playing one briefly in a store, trust me, you haven't heard it anywhere NEAR its best...

Thanks for the info Dikki. Seems I underestimated it a bit from a shop Demo but I do still prefer the OS on the Korg than any other Brand. Am happy with the Le as all I do now is sit down and play mostly.

Dikikeys wrote:And probably the most forward looking feature on the arranger, the 'Key Audio Loops' feature,

Yep - we have Ketron to thank for that from several years ago - would like to see Korg take this on in future models, however I really don't find the Tyros "audio" styles that impressive from the demos I have heard - my expectations were much higher - currently it's mostly about drums and to be honest, in most styles, if the drumming is tasteful and well created, the difference between "audio" and MIDI is not that significant.

Dikikeys wrote:so none of those Korg 'load it first, then use it' bottlenecks that slow down spontaneity on stage don't exist...

Never had any "loading bottlenecks" except for re-boot - what are you referring to here?

As for Roland gear - I have recently purchased the Roland VR09 - well those "....deaf and hearing impaired....." Roland employees (per Dikikeys) did a fantastic job with this keyboard - absolutely awesome sounds and a great great "B3/Leslie" emulation - just can't leave it alone - very few sounds that I already have so it's a great complement to my current gear - and so so CHEAP right now (under $800)!!!! Even my AX09 has sounds to die for IMHO.

Always loved Roland gear (D50, U20, E20, E20, VR09, AX09)

My "Yamaha" wish (for several years now) - rewrite that shocking OS (so that it is suited to live performance and recording), fix the fingering, and PLEASE make it affordable (at least value for money)

My "Roland" wish - get a real arranger competitor out there!!!

My Korg wish - hurry up with the PA4X

Pete

karmathanever wrote: if the drumming is tasteful and well created, the difference between "audio" and MIDI is not that significant.

Pete this is an excellent observation and the already applied status in VSTi industry for more than 10 years ,
no one uses audio files there anymore ...
Neither I , and in case I'd like to use real played patterns with some oriental percussion sets that I can't create the specific groove
via midi events since I do not own all sampled timbres of them , then time sliced technique gives me the options to create a
more realistic result in time stretching than any audio file , though we need some more features in this "time slice" mode that
only a few people know how to use properly !
Of course , I will welcome a custom 'Key Audio Loops' feature for guitar mode though it will also require 2 Gb Ram , but
there are so many most significant features to be developed in new PaSeries !

There are quite a few things from the Korg OS I really envy... The Songbook is fantastic, and the detailed voice editing and creation is second to none. But, I must admit, it comes at quite a cost in complexity! My friend's PA3X is probably the most unintuitive thing I've ever used since my K2500! Capable of great things, but it hardly presents as a user friendly arranger!

Now that Korg have removed my main problem with them (although others had got used to it, I haven't had an arranger since the G1000 that only had two fills, and I found the transitions VERY unmusical at times on the PA1X and 2X) I am back to considering them a contender for my dollar, but I'm not sure I want to deal with that OS! I already have a ton of WS's and VSTi's... I play arrangers because they are so EASY to run! Lose all that, might as well use the Kurzweil

My reference to having to load up a Korg FIRST is exactly that... If you want to do anything that isn't already in your Korg's memory, you have to stop playing, load it up from a SET or whatever, THEN play it. Roland's read everything directly, instantly from the stick, so no matter how large your needs, it's all available instantly. Particularly when you start to use audio loops, or customize styles for every Set List, you can rapidly run out of room in a Korg to have all the resources (particularly samples) loaded all the time. Many, many Korg users have asked for direct reading from a stick, well. Roland already do that...

And, the big difference between Ketron and Roland when it comes to audio loops is the ease of creating your OWN sets of loops. In fact, Roland provide no content whatsoever! So it's going to HAVE to be your content! But given that I hate the large majority of Yamaha's audio drum loops, and that you cannot use your own AT ALL, the feature, even though it isn't as deeply integrated with the style section (you call up Roland audio by key or footswitch, the Variation buttons don't trigger it - yet!), I consider it a MUCH better use of audio loops in an arranger. And even Ketron's much better ROM loops, the difficulty of adding your own still skews my opinion towards the Roland's system.

The thing that astounds me, though, is that Roland have absolutely NO IDEA how forward looking and trend breaking this feature is. If there is ONE thing that might drag younger players back into using arrangers, it's ease of import and use of user loops! It's quite amazing.. get a decent breakbeat library, turn off most of the arranger drums, suddenly your arranger sounds just like a modern beatstation keyboard! But FAR easier to control than those! But Roland include NO loops, NO Performances that leverage those loops, you play one in a store, you wouldn't know this feature exists at all, let alone hear how it can turn a modest arranger into something that can give Motif's or Fantom's a run for their money...

And Karma... that B3 in the VR09 is the exact same one in the BK-9. Sadly, the team that design the FA's and VR's etc. are NOT the team that make the arrangers. But they do share core technology (several SN Tones come from the Jupiter80, a bunch of the kits come from the V-Drums). But once those dunderheads on the arranger voicing team get a hold of it, it's a toss-up whether they can turn an excellent core tone into an abomination of a Performance!

You are pretty safe with just Tones, but the minute Roland try to turn them into a well balanced Style, with well balanced OTS settings, the poo starts to fly!

Roland seem to have the hardware part down... They've created an utter gem of an arranger, with a ton of stuff in it that is forward looking, from audio loop ease of use to velocity control of styles' dynamics. Then they gave it to their hearing impaired voicing department and crippled it! Then they send it out to the dealers with next to no promotion, next to no self-demoing capability (they didn't even include any demo sequences until a later update!), no content that shows off the audio capabilities, and ROM MA entries and Style balances that could make a deaf guy wince!

If there's a better recipe for failure, if there's a more efficient way of shooting yourself in the foot, I can't think of it!

Yet, Roland continues to require us to use two button pushes to select and play intros and endings, unless the style variation just happens to be on the correct one. ADD FOUR MORE BUTTONS!
DonM