Korg Sound Quality under chains…

[EvilDragon]

Slew limited pitch bend of one semitone via AT, works wonders here, especially when you can't reach that pitch bend when you're playing something else with your left hand.

Very useful thing, this aftertouch. But not on Rolands, because they make it near impossible to trigger Any keyboard that is able to process modulation signals with a slew limiter/lag processor, automatically wins the aftertouch battle (Korg with AMS mixers, Kurzweil with FUNs, Waldorf with their modifier matrix).

[jimknopf]

Yes, this may be a welcome workaround in emergency cases.

But again, this is not the way I prefer to use pitch bend (returning regular half step). Pitch bend becomes expressive with varying both in pitch and time, and normally to me it's not really worth using it, if expressive play is not possible due to AT. I'd rather leave the chords to a rearranged eguitar part (even if the sound is not my first choice) than play my own comping and use fixed pitch bend by aftertouch with my right hand.

[EvilDragon]

It's as expressive as pitch wheel can be. Just gotta set the lag/slew limiter nicely. I find it as usable as pitch wheel/joystick. Sometimes even more.

[jimknopf]

Sorry Dragon, I don't buy that: it's not even remotely as precise as a wheel IMHO.

That has good reasons:
- key pressure has only a fraction of the way for fine movements. It just makes no sense to think that you could be equally precise
- keys of all standard synthesizers I know don't have exactly equal velocity/aftertouch pressure between keys
- your fingers' pressure will differ slightly in vivid play
- you are limited to half step bending by definition, which is really a poor reduction. But if you would try bigger intervals, you would immediately feel how incredibly imprecise aftertouch is compared to a wheel (where I can manage several intervals with one setting after some training)

To imagine that Jan Hammer or George Duke could ever have accomplished their excellent bending techniques with key pressure is nothing I will ever believe for a single moment.

[Thoraldus]

I'm used to the 2nd Touch found on Theater Organs. It's either on or off - no pressure sensing. You push a little harder and the key depresses another 3/8" or so for the 2nd touch voicing. Fully polyphonic of course.

[SanderXpander]

George Duke's fanous clavinet with the pitch bend lever takes the cake. Like a 30cm movement for a major second bend.

[StephenKay]

I use aftertouch extensively in KARMA Performances (Combis), and I think it is absolutely necessary.

It depends how you are playing the keyboard, and how it is setup.

If you program the MIDI filters page properly, then, in a KARMA combi, you can: add vibrato to the RH lead sounds, while simultaneously changing chords with the LH, driving the KARMA grooves, and switching scenes - all while there is no time to use the LH to fiddle with the joystick or mod wheel.

Aftertouch is fantastic. When programmed correctly and when the people that are using the patches know how to utilize it.

[jimknopf]

Yes Stephen, I understand that aftertouch is a very useful switch for Karma. And it may be a useable option for just playing in a melody line with some vibrato within a verse or chorus.

Still, I would never use it for pitch bending or modulation in an expressive synth solo. It just does not remotely give me the kind of control I want for that. So I would always prefer arranging a song for free two hand keyboard soloing, over doing my own left hand backing sounds (unless using some tricks like long decay chords from the left or the like). Whenever I play a syntn solo, aftertouch is definitely switched off in the program, not to get in the way while hitting keys harder, and I will rather have other velocity sensitive settings like opening cutoff etc there: so aftertocuh is a no go for that.

[EvilDragon]

It can be used EXACTLY for that, Jim, exactly the way I said - by smoothing it out with some slew limiting. Works every time, and sure enough it can be very expressive. Think a screaming guitar solo with feedback on aftertouch rather than modwheel which can then be used for something else (example - palm muting). Millions of possible usages, nothing to be sneezed at.

[jimknopf]

Dragon, I wish you fun doing anything the way it fits for you.

But I won't go that route: even with slew adjustments I regard aftertouch as a miserable choice for pitch bend and well controlled modulation, for the reasons I named above. Your answer does not adress any of these reasons.

And let's take your example of having a guitar feedback sound on aftertouch as additional modulation. Imagine I have a synth solo sound which adds a bit agressiveness by opening cutoff and/or adding a bt of resonance with harder attack - which is the way I often use solo synth sounds. As soon as I would hit a sustained note hard with a bit of too much pressure following, I get an effect I don't want. If I make aftertouch less sensitive, I get the opposite problem and have to press hard to get the effect - another no go during the flow of a synth solo. I have experienced that problem more than once, and simpoly don't even want to think of avoiding it during play. So aftertouch is strictly banned from my synth soloing, and it will probably stay like that.

Anyway, as I said above, to each his/her own-

[Davd C. Polich]

Gotta agree with Jim Knopf here. It is a personal thing - and personally, I
really hate aftertouch implementation, for precisely the reasons he listed.

What's worse is that some controllers have been develop that let you modulate things by wiggling the keys from side to side - just makes me think my keys are loose.

If you ever played a B3, you got used to either having the Leslie speed switch on the front of the organ, left side right underneath the lower manual, or you changed speeds with a footswitch. Either way, classic Hammond B3 technique never involved PRESSING on the keys to get the Leslie to speed up and slow down. Why? Because pressing down on the keys screws up your playing, you really can't effectively do runs AND press on the keys simultaneously. At least I can't. Jimmy Smith would be rolling in his grave over a B3 that required one to push down harder on the keys to speed up the Leslie.

Yes, there were a few Hammonds that employed that weird pressure thing where you could push down and get farther travel out of the keys. Those Hammonds sucked.

[dfahrner]

...because pressing down on the keys screws up your playing, you really can't effectively do runs AND press on the keys simultaneously...

I don't remember "riding" the Leslie switch on a real Hammond while playing right-hand runs, but I guess I wasn't a serious Hammond player - I mostly used an M3 for chordal fills, and in fact had the switch on the volume pedal wired to control Leslie speed...so I use AT in the same way, with rotary speed switch in toggle mode...you can set AT sensitivity so that you don't accidentally trigger it during those blazing runs...and again, AT speed control is useful when playing a piano or solo part with the other hand, and you don't have a spare hand to throw a switch...

Anyway, we get it, guys, AT works for some and not for others...it looks like there are more "others", since manufacturers are starting to leave even channel AT off of newer instruments...and getting back to the original topic, since no affordable synth ever had poly AT, hardly anybody ever even had a chance to try it, much less develop the technique, and so there's no demand...chickens and eggs...

df

[BobTheDog]

Some interesting points here, good to see how different we all are.

Channel aftertouch I have never really thought was that great, you might as well just use a pedal or mod wheel.

Poly Aftertouch though is a different matter, maybe it is because I am guitar player and always thought it was a limitation of keyboards not being able to alter the pitch of individual notes.

I had a go on a Continuum board years a go and was hooked on this idea, now that the Linstrument is arriving at an affordable price maybe more people will start demanding polyphonic/control controllers. I'm trying to get hold of one anyway but the first batch was USA centric, even though I pleaded with them to send one over the pond.

[psionic311]

Slew limited pitch bend of one semitone via AT, works wonders here, especially when you can't reach that pitch bend when you're playing something else with your left hand.

Very useful thing, this aftertouch. But not on Rolands, because they make it near impossible to trigger Any keyboard that is able to process modulation signals with a slew limiter/lag processor, automatically wins the aftertouch battle (Korg with AMS mixers, Kurzweil with FUNs, Waldorf with their modifier matrix).

And the Alesis Fusion with its mod matrix. Velocity curves and AT intensities are much more adjustable -- and therefore musical -- and are programmable per patch. Although I like my Kronos much better than my Fusions, I am disappointed with the less responsive and less intuitive velocity and after touch performance on the Kronos. The choice of 3 or 4 for velocity is too imprecise, and i've yet to find any after touch setting that is suitable. When creating synth sounds, modulation via AT are early tweaks for me: increasing vibrato depth, filter cutoff, and volume via finger pressure are standard expression tools in my playing style.

And yes, slew limiter or lag processing on AT pitch bend amount! The Fusion calls it smoothing, and besides amount, you have adjustable curve, with either choice of additive or multiplicative (and whether positive or negative).

And while I'm off topic, I may as well bemoan the absence of multiple filter emulations in the Kronos. The Fusion -- and especially the Micron -- have a great diversity filter types, and they do matter. The squelchy TB303 and that characteristic 2 pole OB, the formant and the BP types, these are missing from the palette on the Kronos.

But back on topic, count me as one who wished poly AT controller keys were a more common choice nowadays. That was the main reason I got my VFXsd. Too bad it's an eBay lemon with broken AT response, and too heavy to lug around.