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Just posted on Youtube keyboard comparisons: Commenting still open. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1ds6tRFxhs

Tom Glander made a good point below. But what is being left out mentioned in these keyboard comparisons is "reality". A reality that exposes the fact they are all keyboard synths and "how good" they actually sound is first and foremost relative to the skill of the programmer/player using the equipment. But no matter how good the player is there are requirements to allow his/her skill to be exposed and implemented.

What really stands out missing here in the comparison without mention is the fact that a basic and vital function once available in the best synth keyboards in the late 70's and early 80's is being left out IN ALL OF THEM: Polyphonic Aftertouch and Release Velocity as well as higher resolution velocity control new technology allows implemented at a low cost. These three features are just as essential to self-expression and sounding good in emulating a natural instrument as the sound used. Leaving out such a needed basic function and powerful tool used properly like poly AT and RV shows the manufactures supporting a silent agreement between them in the interest of making a profit taking advantage of cheap labor and new tech reducing costs. So rather than ask which one "sounds best", it's time for musicians at all levels of experience and performance to ask "why do they all sound so bad" trying to emulate natural instruments and create tonal space that takes Man where no Man has gone before. Poly AT is left out on the best and most expensive synths like the OASYS because once people are reminded of the past and what is being left out necessary for expression and see the advantage it will become an essential marketing tool the manufactures do not want to see happen as it will affect profits.

To see inexpensive Channel AT even being left out of synths that cost thousands of dollars that would have stopped sales to beginners back in the 70's & 80's as it was standard equipment on $500 and above semi-pro keyboards is telling a true story exposing the weakness of a consumer driven keyboard market failing to benefit the consumer in favor of profits for the manufactures. IMO it's not just cost savings regarding leaving CH AT out as CH AT cost's VERY little to include, but rather the newer complex sounds with far greater potential and higher polyphony REQUIRE Poly AT to avoid key aftertouch creating a sonic mess as CH AT does and shows CH AT is often best just tuned off. So in the interest of profit over function what the manufactures have done is make key control through basic aftertouch "look" like it is an option rather than a requirement that allows proper control of the sound for self-expression needed to emulate natural instruments as well as new ones created never heard before. The short lived VAX 77 midi controller showed what can be done, but built by a small company wanting it to fold simply cost too much for someone that does not understand what is being left out. By the numbers there are not simply not enough professionals making noise about it to change the mindset of the manufactures.

So what difference does it make "how good" a keyboard sounds if it can't emulate the instrument's sound you are using because the required control response is left out? Until people demand the features the VAX77 brought back temporarily we will continue to see these comparisons that leave out the most important aspect of "sounding good" and playing well.

Thank you for the video. I am surprised about the nord stage for me the best Piano!! The sound is the best for a band. The yamaha and the kurzweil sounds like a toy in whole sound samples. Thw Kronos is on the second place.

After playing 3 years the KRONOS its also my result. The KRONOS lost a lot of presence in the sounds. The possibilities are endless but the sound has changed to the soulless sounds of software synths. If I only compare preset sounds of my trinity and the KRONOS. less pressure, less brilliance an less presence in a band play... When and where has lost the WOW???

Actually release velocity is pretty much alive on some of the boards... Hell, I remember even the old Korg X5D sent release velocity data (even though it was not officially stated in the MIDI implementation chart!). I think even the M3 did the same thing, so maybe Kronos can do the same?

Release velocity supported on all Kurzweils as far as I know. Nord, I am not sure.


But yes, poly AT is a sore spot for many.

The KRONOS supports Note Off (release) Velocity, sending V=1-64, and receiving V= 0-127...Note Off Velocity is not recorded by the sequencer.

Polyphonic aftertouch would obviously be a useful function to have for some things...but since hardly any current (and older) synths have it, almost no one has developed the technique to use it (it's not a traditional keyboard technique), so there's no demand for it...keyboard manufacturers are not going to add cost (a separate sensor for every key) to support a feature there's no demand for...even though it's a lot simpler and cheaper to implement, channel aftertouch has been left of a lot of newer keyboards probably because most keyboardists don't use it anyway...

df

80salife wrote:Thank you for the video. I am surprised about the nord stage for me the best Piano!! The sound is the best for a band. The yamaha and the kurzweil sounds like a toy in whole sound samples. Thw Kronos is on the second place.

After playing 3 years the KRONOS its also my result. The KRONOS lost a lot of presence in the sounds. The possibilities are endless but the sound has changed to the soulless sounds of software synths. If I only compare preset sounds of my trinity and the KRONOS. less pressure, less brilliance an less presence in a band play... When and where has lost the WOW???

The video isn't new (meanhwile the Kronos has a much better B3 engine), and the Nord piano is in fact fine for loud band context.

Else I can't follow your statement about "the soulless sounds of software synths" at all - neither as a general remark about software synths nor concerning the Kronos.

The Kronos is ten times more flexible and less limited than a Triton to achieve any kind of sound and any bit of presence in band context you could ever wish. It beats the Triton in each single sound category.

The only difference is in fact the preset programming: a lot of the Kronos presets have either a showcase touch (with too much wet effect - you have to make them more dry for live context) or a studio touch (you have to adjust them for band play and can do so with more than enough means).

I wouldn't exchange my Kronos with ANY workstation/multiporpose synth on the market, since I kearned how to use it, and certainly NOT with a Triton. It just can do sooo many things sooo much better sounding! And I also wouldnt want any of the three other synths tested in exchange, because they all are much more limited than the Kronos, with it's multi engine concept and easy access to any sample content by user streaming.

80salife wrote:If I only compare preset sounds of my trinity and the KRONOS. less pressure, less brilliance an less presence in a band play... When and where has lost the WOW???

Before too many people jump on you (Jim he's referring to the Trinity not the Triton) I understand what you are saying regarding the aspects you mentioned of the Trinity as its sound detail was in a class of it's own and trying to outdo "Roland's sound" IMO when it came out. However when I think of it I can't help recall driving down to Easymusic in Honolulu when it came out exited to demo it and walked in and asked if was setup yet and the salesman saying "you mean the Tintaty"... yea its setup but you're going to be disappointed". Along side the Wavestation and O1W it did sound weak and less ballsy but had the qualities you mention and there were some stunning sounds I found tweaking it. It was give and take... and I wanted both but got the Wavestation A/D instead and on EBay made bids on a few but never won the bidding. If you have adjusted your ears to the Trinity I can see why you feel that way. But I have to agree with Jim that the Kronos, especially when you tweak the sounds as he mentioned, is hands down better than any other synth currently on the market and few players if any are as capable as its potential is.

dfahrner wrote: Polyphonic aftertouch would obviously be a useful function to have for some things...but since hardly any current (and older) synths have it, almost no one has developed the technique to use it (it's not a traditional keyboard technique), so there's no demand for it...keyboard manufacturers are not going to add cost (a separate sensor for every key) to support a feature there's no demand for...even though it's a lot simpler and cheaper to implement, channel aftertouch has been left of a lot of newer keyboards probably because most keyboardists don't use it anyway... df

Wow... wait a second... are you taking about playing classical piano by the "rules", or playing a synthesizer using a keyboard? Big difference. And even if talking piano there is a reason the Rhodes Mark 7, an electric piano has Poly AT and uses a "patented highly accurate sensing technology unlike conventional keyboard sensing technologies" that unlike the normal 4-5 steps "continuously keeps tracks of even the slightest movement of every single key" to express all the nuances of the players skill level and why it has a reputation of having superior velocity response by some of the best piano players. I assure you the reason CH AT has been left out is not because most players don't use it and certainly not the professionals. On complex sounds CH AT makes a mess of the sound and they require Poly AT to avoid that, but on the simple classic sounds it still has value and in some situations a preference over Poly AT. It's about the money and keeping people in the dark. Look at all the new "little guy" startup's like the NDVR Note Master Keyboard, the TB MIDI Stuff modular MIDI & OSC control surface, the QuNexus Keyboard Controller, the CME slimline MISI controller keyboard, the TouchKeys capacitive sensor overlay system, or the amazing VAX77 all focusing on Polyphonic Aftertouch.

Many people have developed lots of different techniques and ways to use Poly AT and that's why so many people scream about it being left out. When MIDI was new it was considered the "right way" to build a synth. Look at the Elka MK series of MIDI controllers, Roland's A50 and A80 controllers, the CS80, and many more keyboards that all had Poly AT with a wide margin of varying performance as it was new technology back when you couldn't sell a synth keyboard without at least CH AT. There was the issue of the MIDI stream getting overloaded but being careful just like you would with limited voice polyphony got around it and that was way back then not now with USB, etc. The better older synths had Poly AT, just look at the lists people have posted showing them all.

http://www.vintagesynth.com/forum/viewt ... =1&t=48415

"The Yamaha DX1 also has Polyphonic Aftertouch.

I own the CS80, T8 and DX1. Polyphonic aftertouch is absolutely wonderful. It transforms an instrument utterly - the ability to affect the filter, amplitude or modulation of individual voices makes a synthesizer as musical as is posssible. For example, the ability to lean into just the melody note only on a CS80 and achieve vibrato on that note only is simply natural and wonderful, but just not achievable on other current keyboards.

Virtually all synths since the JV2080 and all current softsynths can respond to polyphonic aftertouch so its a shame that manufacturers do not provide PA keyboards. I emailed CME on this two years ago and they said they'd look into it. Actually they emailed back to say that the sensors are very cheap. So it's more the fact that players are not crying out for it than a cost issue as to why it is generally not available.

You _cannot_ emulate PA in software - its a physical thing. In my opinion, once your experience PA, you can never go back. Even on the T8 (where some have suggested it actually takes away from the SC sound) - an otherwise typical polyphonic synth is transformed into a beast of an expressive instrument. And the DX1 is far and beyond two DX7's because of PA. I wouldn't have thought it until I acquired the DX1, but PA radically enhances FM synthesis performance, making for even more acoustic like playing.

Can you imagine using a PA keyboard with the Arturia's CS80V - now that would be a very intriguing experience and about as close to the expressive power fo the orginal CS80 as would be possible these days.

Kevin"

What's really a shame is the keyboard market is not like the exploding RC aircraft market that's hard to keep up with as new and better products keep coming out with prices dropping due to competition taking advantage of new technology.

I know you've been on a Poly AT crusade for some time and I agree that it would be a nice feature. I've never missed it however and I am a synth playing professional. I don't think dfahrner's point is unreasonable - too few players really depend on it for them for to put extra money into it. It's just not mainstream enough. If you're Vangelis or some other synth loving solo performer/composer I can imagine it being a big deal.

jimknopf wrote: The Kronos is ten times more flexible and less limited than a Triton to achieve any kind of sound and any bit of presence in band context you could ever wish. It beats the Triton in each single sound category.

I wrote that the possibilities are endless, sure the best Piano ever from Korg, but not the best of all, same with the B3 or the e-piano section. it is all a piece of everything, a big piece.

Its hard to explain it is a kind of feel during playing the Kronos, sure you can rebuilt every sound you want to rebuilt. And each musician would say its the best synth ever... You have millions of effects EQs... But its not fat no WOW, thats the only thing I wanna say. You have cooked the best meal ever, the best meat, best vegetables, fresh but you forgot the salt...

80salife: I think you simply have all the salt ever needed on board: just use it!

- the onboard Piano sounds can always be a matter of discussion, though I know live keyboarders who have tuned them for their live play without missing anyting. I bought and use the Bosendorfer and have zero problems in loud band context since then.

- from my view the Kronos EP engine is by far(!) better for Rhodes and Wurly sounds than anything Yamaha, Kurzweil and Nord do offer: just program it to your liking.

- the Korg CX3 V2. is better than the Yamaha sample stuff hands down, slightly better than the Kurzweil and just as good as on the Nord, with the exception of overdrive (which still sounds more natural on the Nords) and the original Hammond smoothness (which is simply better on the Korg in comparison with the Nords).

- for Clavs I play user samples, sounding miles better than anything the other three offer

- for onboard synth sounds I have access to three great engines, which I like more than the VAs from Nord and Kurzweil, and where Yamaha with it's samples does not even remotely offer me what I want

etc etc.

I can understand some frustration of people strictly staying with the presets as they are, and often losing track while searching through the many thousands of available sounds ( I reorganised mine to have only sounds on board which I like, and find everything in place very fast). But the Kronos is made to get mUCH more from it than just the presets.

Perhaps, if you ask yourself what you are really missing, you could just get it from the Kronos easier than you think. The sound engine has quality and power beyond any doubts.

SanderXpander wrote:I know you've been on a Poly AT crusade for some time and I agree that it would be a nice feature. I've never missed it however and I am a synth playing professional. I don't think dfahrner's point is unreasonable - too few players really depend on it for them for to put extra money into it. It's just not mainstream enough. If you're Vangelis or some other synth loving solo performer/composer I can imagine it being a big deal.

How can it become highly adapted if very fwe manufactors make it?!!
The same as saying that fully electrical cars are not mainstream product but actually very fwe manufactors make them.
Touch screen samartphones whould not become mainstream if Apple or sombody else did not develop a good phone to start with!
The same analogy can be with other things!

I don't actually oppose Poly AT, I would like it as a feature even though it is not currently very important to me. I was just responding to the argument that many people use it and it must be important to professionals.

Count me as one of those who absolutely hates aftertouch on anything.

Reason No. 1 - it's all too easy to create modulation or whatever that is
assigned to aftertouch when you hit the keys harder. That's what I don't want.

Reason No. 2 - I grew up playing Minimoogs, Prophets, Hammonds, and
Rhodes and Clavs. There was no aftertouch on any of these instruments.
If you wanted modulation on a synth you moved the mod wheel. Aftertouch assigned to modulation or pitch bend just feels weird to me as a player.

I use channel AT for just a couple of things: switching Leslie speed (so I don't have to take either hand off a keyboard), or slightly increasing the volume / brightness of a solo horn or synth sound (footpedals are in use for other things / channels)...it seems very natural to me to push a little harder on the keys to bring in a little more intensity like this...but either most people can't figure out how to program aftertouch in a sound (certainly not Mr. Polich's problem), or the synth's aftertouch is too sensitive, or not sensitive enough, and / or can't be adjusted (the KRONOS isn't too bad, but some are impossible - I've had to make hardware mods on some Rolands to make AT usable), so it never gets used...leaning a little harder is one thing, but adjusting the pressure on just one finger (poly AT) seems like a whole other level of technique to me, but then I've never had an instrument to try it on...

df

Except for growing up between Moogs and clavinets (I'm not old enough) you both pretty much echo my thoughts and this is why I hardly use aftertouch.

Davd C. Polich wrote:Count me as one of those who absolutely hates aftertouch on anything. ...

+1

I also hate AT except in rare cases as a switch (like dfahrner, Leslie etc.). It much more often gets in the way than help.

All aftertouch I met so far is by far not precise enough to make sense for controlling modulation levels, polyphonic all the more.

And even if there are rare cases when it might be nice (hardly more) to put some expression on single notes in polyphonic play, this rare occasion, which perhaps would only be used casually, by a mini fraction of players, does in no way justify the extra costs for the vast majority of keyboarders, who are not interested for good reasons. Maybe it could be an extra in some more expensive synths without changing their high price too much.

And mind: in loud live band context it will hardly be noticed by anyone anyway, and while recording, you can easily draw controller curves for single voices/notes into your DAW, which will sit much more precise in the mix.