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Daw integration
Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:45 am
by Bachus
Been a while, but after seeing the whole akai advanced midi controller on NAMM, i kept wondering why the Kronos doesnt have such an integration yet..
Having full controll over a DAW by just choosing the setting for that DAW, withouth manuall setup
Using the kronos as a vst inside the DAW, and still being able to do some things locally on the Kronos..
Or controlling VST sounds as if they where local sounds
- all those things should have been possible a long time by now...
Sending things like Kronos sounds trough VST effects and mixing every single kronos channel sepperately into a DAW will be hard to archeive, as the Kronos USB interface does not support the required speed... But those other things should all be possible... Even controlling the daw directly from your Kronos touchscreen (if you wanted to, could be archieed trough remote desktop technollogy..)
I think this is currently the weakest point of Kronos, and the only reason Yamaha is still breathing and selling Motifs, the Kronos is build as a standalone beast... But closing your eyes for these features? As they would really make the Kronos the heart in any home studio...
Its not the first time i wonder why Korg isnt doing this yet.. I think they really missed this chance not implementing it yet with the new Kronos2
Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:01 pm
by Synthee
Agree.
I even sold my Kronos88 and bought a Yamaha MOXF8 instead for the DAW integration, startup time and no fan noise.
But the sounds are not as good as Kronos so Im thinking about buying a Kronos 2 now if the fan noise is lower.
I think the reason for poor DAW integration is that Korg made the Kronos mostly as an stage keyboard, it doesn't even come with ASIO drivers as even the cheapest audio products do nowadays.
And Korg dont include a VST editor for 64 bit, that should be a minimum of DAW integration in a modern expensive high end keyboard.
Re: Daw integration
Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:41 pm
by QuiRobinez
Bachus wrote:
I think this is currently the weakest point of Kronos, and the only reason Yamaha is still breathing and selling Motifs, the Kronos is build as a standalone beast... But closing your eyes for these features? As they would really make the Kronos the heart in any home studio...
i agree,
the computer integration is the weakest point and basically non existent for use in a DAW since it has no 64 bits support since the release and still doesn't have it.
The good news is that you can use it to control other synths in your DAW and even have some automation added in your DAW for total recall purposes. But you have to program it yourself.
It depends on the DAW how to do it.
Basically you can press the external button on the kronos. the RTC knobs, switches and faders will send out Control changes on the desired midi channel. You have to create a map for this by pressing the global button on the kronos and then select the Midi tab and then the External 1 subtab.
Add your desired CC information there and don't forget to save the global settings.
The next step is to use a mapping in your DAW, for instance for cubase you create a midi device map or you assign the quick controls which you can map to anything on your VST. From that moment on you can control the VST with your kronos by just pressing the External knob on the kronos.
In Ableton Live you can do the same by creating a midi map.
For Kronos automation i've created a midi mapping which routed the RTC CC information to knobs in the DAW. Then i could fully automate the RTC parameters in my songs.
So it is possible on this level. But it's nowhere near the functionality that other competitors like yamaha, roland or Access offers.
Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:12 pm
by ed_f
I agree it is weak and I am disappointed since I had hoped the editor as plugin would be a cool option.
Having said that I now have a lot of functionality in Logic but that required a lot of work in the environment to get things they way I wanted.
Re: Daw integration
Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:37 pm
by GregC
Bachus wrote:Been a while, but after seeing the whole akai advanced midi controller on NAMM, i kept wondering why the Kronos doesnt have such an integration yet..
Having full controll over a DAW by just choosing the setting for that DAW, withouth manuall setup
Using the kronos as a vst inside the DAW, and still being able to do some things locally on the Kronos..
Or controlling VST sounds as if they where local sounds
- all those things should have been possible a long time by now...
Sending things like Kronos sounds trough VST effects and mixing every single kronos channel sepperately into a DAW will be hard to archeive, as the Kronos USB interface does not support the required speed... But those other things should all be possible... Even controlling the daw directly from your Kronos touchscreen (if you wanted to, could be archieed trough remote desktop technollogy..)
I think this is currently the weakest point of Kronos, and the only reason Yamaha is still breathing and selling Motifs, the Kronos is build as a standalone beast... But closing your eyes for these features? As they would really make the Kronos the heart in any home studio...
Its not the first time i wonder why Korg isnt doing this yet.. I think they really missed this chance not implementing it yet with the new Kronos2
Those are valid questions. Having worked in the electronics industry ( which is similar in many ways to Korg, Yamaha) I can give you my guesses.
The Kronos is a success even without very good or a simpler (?) DAW integration. And the Kronos was mapped out some time ago, lets say 2009, and this integration was left off the table for business reasons.
Plus the strategy of the Kronos since 2011 has been to keep newish models fully integrated. So I did not expect dramatic differences in the Kronos 2.
Perhaps, Korg is also content to allow Yamaha to have the DAW integration advantage. From a marketplace standpoint, it is healthier to have 2 or 3 players , offering different choices, and to share the market ( sales) pie.
Thus it might not be that beneficial , long term, to have only 1 behemoth workstation that devours 90% of the marketplace.
Even with this, it is likely we can be optimistic about Korg taking the Oasys/Kronos concept to the next level in 2016/2017.
Re: Daw integration
Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:58 pm
by Bachus
GregC wrote:Bachus wrote:Been a while, but after seeing the whole akai advanced midi controller on NAMM, i kept wondering why the Kronos doesnt have such an integration yet..
Having full controll over a DAW by just choosing the setting for that DAW, withouth manuall setup
Using the kronos as a vst inside the DAW, and still being able to do some things locally on the Kronos..
Or controlling VST sounds as if they where local sounds
- all those things should have been possible a long time by now...
Sending things like Kronos sounds trough VST effects and mixing every single kronos channel sepperately into a DAW will be hard to archeive, as the Kronos USB interface does not support the required speed... But those other things should all be possible... Even controlling the daw directly from your Kronos touchscreen (if you wanted to, could be archieed trough remote desktop technollogy..)
I think this is currently the weakest point of Kronos, and the only reason Yamaha is still breathing and selling Motifs, the Kronos is build as a standalone beast... But closing your eyes for these features? As they would really make the Kronos the heart in any home studio...
Its not the first time i wonder why Korg isnt doing this yet.. I think they really missed this chance not implementing it yet with the new Kronos2
Those are valid questions. Having worked in the electronics industry ( which is similar in many ways to Korg, Yamaha) I can give you my guesses.
The Kronos is a success even without very good or a simpler (?) DAW integration. And the Kronos was mapped out some time ago, lets say 2009, and this integration was left off the table for business reasons.
Plus the strategy of the Kronos since 2011 has been to keep newish models fully integrated. So I did not expect dramatic differences in the Kronos 2.
Perhaps, Korg is also content to allow Yamaha to have the DAW integration advantage. From a marketplace standpoint, it is healthier to have 2 or 3 players , offering different choices, and to share the market ( sales) pie.
Thus it might not be that beneficial , long term, to have only 1 behemoth workstation that devours 90% of the marketplace.
Even with this, it is likely we can be optimistic about Korg taking the Oasys/Kronos concept to the next level in 2016/2017.
I think i disagree with you, if yamaha looses to much market share, they will be forced to react, and spend resources... Motif hasnt changed for 8 years now ( functionallity) innovation is a needed thing to keep a market aive. And Korg, well, they are still selling Oasys offspring, there hasnt been any real innovation either for years.. And Roaland, well, where it comes to workstations, the same story... No innovation at all... Still selling the same old same...
All in all this market needs innovation to get the money flowing again....
Re: Daw integration
Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:11 pm
by GregC
Bachus wrote:GregC wrote:Bachus wrote:Been a while, but after seeing the whole akai advanced midi controller on NAMM, i kept wondering why the Kronos doesnt have such an integration yet..
Having full controll over a DAW by just choosing the setting for that DAW, withouth manuall setup
Using the kronos as a vst inside the DAW, and still being able to do some things locally on the Kronos..
Or controlling VST sounds as if they where local sounds
- all those things should have been possible a long time by now...
Sending things like Kronos sounds trough VST effects and mixing every single kronos channel sepperately into a DAW will be hard to archeive, as the Kronos USB interface does not support the required speed... But those other things should all be possible... Even controlling the daw directly from your Kronos touchscreen (if you wanted to, could be archieed trough remote desktop technollogy..)
I think this is currently the weakest point of Kronos, and the only reason Yamaha is still breathing and selling Motifs, the Kronos is build as a standalone beast... But closing your eyes for these features? As they would really make the Kronos the heart in any home studio...
Its not the first time i wonder why Korg isnt doing this yet.. I think they really missed this chance not implementing it yet with the new Kronos2
Those are valid questions. Having worked in the electronics industry ( which is similar in many ways to Korg, Yamaha) I can give you my guesses.
The Kronos is a success even without very good or a simpler (?) DAW integration. And the Kronos was mapped out some time ago, lets say 2009, and this integration was left off the table for business reasons.
Plus the strategy of the Kronos since 2011 has been to keep newish models fully integrated. So I did not expect dramatic differences in the Kronos 2.
Perhaps, Korg is also content to allow Yamaha to have the DAW integration advantage. From a marketplace standpoint, it is healthier to have 2 or 3 players , offering different choices, and to share the market ( sales) pie.
Thus it might not be that beneficial , long term, to have only 1 behemoth workstation that devours 90% of the marketplace.
Even with this, it is likely we can be optimistic about Korg taking the Oasys/Kronos concept to the next level in 2016/2017.
I think i disagree with you, if yamaha looses to much market share, they will be forced to react, and spend resources... Motif hasnt changed for 8 years now ( functionallity) innovation is a needed thing to keep a market aive. And Korg, well, they are still selling Oasys offspring, there hasnt been any real innovation either for years.. And Roaland, well, where it comes to workstations, the same story... No innovation at all... Still selling the same old same...
All in all this market needs innovation to get the money flowing again....
why do you think Yamaha , Roland and Korg are not ' motivated ' to do as you state ? ( innovate per your thinking , in certain areas)
Re: Daw integration
Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:53 pm
by Bachus
GregC wrote:Bachus wrote:GregC wrote:
Those are valid questions. Having worked in the electronics industry ( which is similar in many ways to Korg, Yamaha) I can give you my guesses.
The Kronos is a success even without very good or a simpler (?) DAW integration. And the Kronos was mapped out some time ago, lets say 2009, and this integration was left off the table for business reasons.
Plus the strategy of the Kronos since 2011 has been to keep newish models fully integrated. So I did not expect dramatic differences in the Kronos 2.
Perhaps, Korg is also content to allow Yamaha to have the DAW integration advantage. From a marketplace standpoint, it is healthier to have 2 or 3 players , offering different choices, and to share the market ( sales) pie.
Thus it might not be that beneficial , long term, to have only 1 behemoth workstation that devours 90% of the marketplace.
Even with this, it is likely we can be optimistic about Korg taking the Oasys/Kronos concept to the next level in 2016/2017.
I think i disagree with you, if yamaha looses to much market share, they will be forced to react, and spend resources... Motif hasnt changed for 8 years now ( functionallity) innovation is a needed thing to keep a market aive. And Korg, well, they are still selling Oasys offspring, there hasnt been any real innovation either for years.. And Roaland, well, where it comes to workstations, the same story... No innovation at all... Still selling the same old same...
All in all this market needs innovation to get the money flowing again....
why do you think Yamaha , Roland and Korg are not ' motivated ' to do as you state ? ( innovate per your thinking , in certain areas)
I think they must think that they lost the battle against software and daws, them being the ultimate studio solution giving producers everything they want..
While most live performers either choose a stage piano, or a more deejaylike ableton/aira/vst setup, or an arranger for OMB people.. Or even analogue synths..
If you look at the power of the lower end workstations like Fa08 and MOXF, they have so much killed any reason for people to spend more then €1000 on a workstation. Yet, both these instruments still show no innovation and might as well be the last breath of their worksation efforts.
Currently i dont think both Roland and Yamaha see any future for the workstation market, while korg is happy where it is, still selling Kronos, making money while keeping their investments in new technollogy low..
Personally however i think that the workstation crowd would love to see a hardware workstation that gives the perfect UI and workflow that only a dedicated interface can give you.. maybe thats the future, if someone creates the perfect hardware masterkey that makes your daw feel and play as if it was a hardware workstation...
The first attempts of this are allready here with things like push, Ni komplete kontroll, Arturia keylab and the upcomming Akai advanced midi controller/keyboards..
But then i am oldfashiond and am still hoping for the all my dreams in one box ultimate expandable workstation that i have been hoping for for two decades now..
Re: Daw integration
Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:17 pm
by GregC
Bachus wrote:GregC wrote:Bachus wrote:
I think i disagree with you, if yamaha looses to much market share, they will be forced to react, and spend resources... Motif hasnt changed for 8 years now ( functionallity) innovation is a needed thing to keep a market aive. And Korg, well, they are still selling Oasys offspring, there hasnt been any real innovation either for years.. And Roaland, well, where it comes to workstations, the same story... No innovation at all... Still selling the same old same...
All in all this market needs innovation to get the money flowing again....
why do you think Yamaha , Roland and Korg are not ' motivated ' to do as you state ? ( innovate per your thinking , in certain areas)
1)I think they must think that they lost the battle against software and daws, them being the ultimate studio solution giving producers everything they want..
2)While most live performers either choose a stage piano, or a more deejaylike ableton/aira/vst setup, or an arranger for OMB people.. Or even analogue synths..
3)If you look at the power of the lower end workstations like Fa08 and MOXF, they have so much killed any reason for people to spend more then €1000 on a workstation. Yet, both these instruments still show no innovation and might as well be the last breath of their worksation efforts.
4)Currently i dont think both Roland and Yamaha see any future for the workstation market, while korg is happy where it is, still selling Kronos, making money while keeping their investments in new technollogy low..
5)Personally however i think that the workstation crowd would love to see a hardware workstation that gives the perfect UI and workflow that only a dedicated interface can give you.. maybe thats the future, if someone creates the perfect hardware masterkey that makes your daw feel and play as if it was a hardware workstation...
The first attempts of this are allready here with things like push, Ni komplete kontroll, Arturia keylab and the upcomming Akai advanced midi controller/keyboards..
But then i am oldfashiond and am still hoping for the all my dreams in one box ultimate expandable workstation that i have been hoping for for two decades now..
I think your points are solid and #'d them to put my spin on a few.
1) while I am not in the movie soundtrack or similar music production business, I think your point of what producers are using for music production tools is completely valid.
2) the ' marketplace ' has fractured and is more so every yr for various reasons. Obviously, for example, Roland has strengths in many areas, such as digital pianos. but how much money can they make on concentrating on numerous ' niche markets ' that change, year after year ?
3) I think Roland and Yamaha have to be separated on this point. Yamaha has a hard core loyal audience with their Motif. well developed over +8 years. I think Yamaha has a steady money maker with the Motif and do not want to ' disenfranchise ' this loyal following by launching a new ( non Motif) workstation. Its not an exciting strategy, but it could be one of those ' if it is not broke , don't fix it '.
4) exactly. Only Korg has revived the traditional workstation . No one else felt that potential. Lets give Korg their props for making it happen. Well, maybe I and few others see it that way.
5) I guess a few pieces have jumped out. But I don't follow the cos you mentioned closely.