A better CX-3 Leslie

Davd C. Polich · Post by **Davd C. Polich** » Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:28 pm

Hi all. This is my first post in a long time on this forum. I'm a sound designer/programmer/keyboard tech and I've done factory programs for many Korg products including the M3 Xpanded, Raidas, and the King Korg.

The subject of this post is how to get (IMO) a "better" Leslie sound from the Kronos CX-3 engine. The 2.11 update included the "re-designed" CX-3
with an improved amp and speaker simulation which took it way beyond what the original CX-3 was. However, anyone who has tried running a CX-3 program out one of the assignable outs and into a Neo Instruments Ventilator will tell you that the Ventilator really is the "shizzle" and the CX-3's own Leslie falls, well, a bit short of that.

So I sat down with the goal of improving the Leslie sound using just the
Kronos' CX-3 engine, to the point where I could consider not using the Ventilator anymore. And it's not hard to do.

Basically, it's a simple matter of adding the Rotary Speaker OD (effect #075) as an insert effect to the CX3 program. This gives you, technically, "two Leslies", running the CX-3's rotary into the Rotary Speaker OD effect. There are those who might tell you this can introduce phase cancellation or distortion artifacts - personally I don't care. All I know is it does improve the sound.

Here's what you do:
1. Make sure the CX-3 program is using Amp Type 1, and that the speaker is set to "Custom".
2. Place the Rotary Speaker OD effect (#075) into the first Insert FX slot (IFX1)
3. Set the CX-3 program's routing to IFX1
4. Set the Rotary OD's parameters like this:
Switch - Toggle
Wet/Dry balance - between 50:50 and 60:40.
Mic Distance - 30-45
Mic spread - 100
Horn intensity - 0.80
Rotor intensity - 0.75
5. Speed - can be either slow or fast (it should be the same as the CX-3's rotary speed). Now when you throw the Mod lever forward it will change the speed on "both" rotary speakers.

Disclaimer: if the CX-3's rotary is set to fast and the Rptary Speaker OD's speed is set to fast, you will hear the Insert effect rotary play a bit of "catch up" when you exit the CX-3 program and then re-select it from another program. This was the case with the M3 (which featured the same Rotary Speaker OD effect) - it always took a tiny bit of time to "engage". If both the CX-3 rotary and the insert effect rotary are set to slow speed, you won't really hear this "catching-up" effect.

That's it. Now while playing the CX-3 sound, toggle the Insert FX 1 on and off. You should be able to clearly hear the difference. I know I do…it adds that "whistling shimmer" and "horn/rotor separation" that is characteristic of the Ventilator (and a real Leslie 122).

kbrkr · Post by **kbrkr** » Sat Aug 30, 2014 1:34 am

I've got to try this.

Please tell me you are the legendary sound programmer / artist Dave C Polich of DCP productions. I'm a great fan of your work if you are.

Thanks
Al

Davd C. Polich · Post by **Davd C. Polich** » Sat Aug 30, 2014 6:29 am

kbrkr wrote:I've got to try this.

Please tell me you are the legendary sound programmer / artist Dave C Polich of DCP productions. I'm a great fan of your work if you are.

Thanks
Al

Yes, that's me…although I'm not sure I deserve the "legendary" status.

Thanks for the shout out.

AntonySharmman · Post by **AntonySharmman** » Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:39 am

Very nice David ...
Unfortunately only a transitional Leslie owner can find it out !
Note that latest of 70's external leslie speakers were a little faster !
In my Hammond C3 EXs library Leslie settings , I strictly follow my C3 Leslie parameters close to :
Mic spread - 85
Horn intensity - 0.75
Rotor intensity - 0.70

Just for anyone that is interested !

Davd C. Polich · Post by **Davd C. Polich** » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:17 pm

AntonySharmman wrote:Very nice David ...
Unfortunately only a transitional Leslie owner can find it out !
Note that latest of 70's external leslie speakers were a little faster !
In my Hammond C3 EXs library Leslie settings , I strictly follow my C3 Leslie parameters close to :
Mic spread - 85
Horn intensity - 0.75
Rotor intensity - 0.70

Just for anyone that is interested !

Thanks for the tip! I was going on memory of my old Leslie 147. I don't
currently have one.

My Bad · Post by **My Bad** » Sun Aug 31, 2014 1:20 am

Excellent job.

Thank you

StephenKay · Post by **StephenKay** » Sun Aug 31, 2014 2:00 am

Hi Dave!

Nice to run into you here - instead of that "other place".

Yep, I actually did the same thing last week (working on a new KARMA-fied Combi Set "Catalyst 2" coming soon). For some reason, the rotary speaker effects that are in the CS3 presets just weren't seeming to cut it, and you can't edit them (much) from inside a Combi with Tone Adjust - but slapping the Rotary Speaker effect on it in the IFX really opens up the depth, stereo spread, sparkle and everything else. I was worried about them conflicting with each other, but it really sounds quite good. Maybe not for purists, but I always say "if it sounds good, use it."

Post by **Sharp** » Sun Aug 31, 2014 2:28 pm

Hi David.

Welcome, and thank you for such an awesome first post.

Kind regards
Sharp

GRISWOLD3 · Post by **GRISWOLD3** » Mon Sep 01, 2014 7:00 am

Dave - Thank you Thank you Thank you!!!

I had been bitching about the Ks Leslie for a while & this seems to nail it. I was up for hours experimenting with this & got some great sounds. I even learned how to save my presets within the Rotary Speaker effect so I don't have to re-create them every time. I assigned the effect overdrive to the joystick X-position for a mild overdrive & use the Knob2 for serious distortion. My inner Jon Lord came out & I can't stop playing!

The sweet B3 background chord playing also has that extra movement (hard to explain) that I was looking for.

FYI - my Kurz PC3 has this awesome double Leslie effect that I was trying to emulate & this is real close, possibly better. I will continue experimenting once my blood pressure lowers...

Cheers,
Larry

laandodeman · Post by **laandodeman** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 6:03 am

Hi Dave, thanks for this, i DO hear the difference.

However, even though I put both on slow, my leslie does not really slow down. Can this be related to the rotary settings in de CX3?

I do keep the feeling I have two leslies whirling at their own tempo.

Davd C. Polich · Post by **Davd C. Polich** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 3:56 pm

laandodeman wrote:Hi Dave, thanks for this, i DO hear the difference.

However, even though I put both on slow, my leslie does not really slow down. Can this be related to the rotary settings in de CX3?

I do keep the feeling I have two leslies whirling at their own tempo.

I can't troubleshoot your programming remotely, so I'm not sure what
you have going on. There is no way to exactly match the two rotary speeds because they are two different effects, obviously, with no exact
correlation of parameters. So yes, of course they "sound like they're whirling at two different tempos" because they are. Try experimenting with the IFX1 Rotary Speaker OD Horn Intensity and Rotor Intensity settings, AND also adjusting the CX-3's Rotary Speaker horn and rotor slow and fast settings. You have SIX speed-related parameter settings to adjust on the CX3's rotary speaker, plus the two speed-related settings on the Rotary Speaker OD effect, for a total of eight. And they will all affect each other. I've adjusted mine to where it sounds good to me..that might not be what sounds good to you.

I don't know what you mean by "my Leslie does not slow down". That sounds like you're saying that when you push the mod lever forward to set it the speed to fast, and then push it forward again to toggle it back to slow, one of the rotary effects doesn't slow back down. Is that it?

At any rate, you should have the Rotary Speaker OD effect(on Insert FX 1 slot) set to "toggle", not "momentary". Re-read my original post, it states exactly what I recommend the parameter settings should be for the Rotary Speaker OD effect on IFX1. Also make SURE the CX3 program is routed to "IFX1", not "L/R".

drama1 · Post by **drama1** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 4:31 pm

Hey Dave: First off THANK YOU for your contributions. Any chance of you posting a pgm file of what you consider your best? Thanks again.

Davd C. Polich · Post by **Davd C. Polich** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 4:51 pm

drama1 wrote:Hey Dave: First off THANK YOU for your contributions. Any chance of you posting a pgm file of what you consider your best? Thanks again.

I've actually had numerous requests for this. Please understand, I earn
my living as a programmer, so it's not in my best interest to effectively give away any work. That's why I posted the tutorial - to give everyone a basic template for getting a better CX-3 sound.

jimknopf · Post by **jimknopf** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 8:16 pm

And I can confirm you're a skilled programmer, having bought your two Retrologue preset packages as Cubase user.

So just go ahead and offer your own CX3 presets at a fair price, and hopefully more for other Kronos engines, where you will find an incredibly rich platform for all kinds of programming.

Any chance we might see some stuff from you for the Kronos?

I would enjoy it even more if you did a set of Kingkorg VA synth sounds, by the way. The thing sounds fantastic, but has an utterly poor soundset base beyond the original factory set. I would certainly pay a good price for a "best of vintage & r&b" set a la Retrologue!

drama1 · Post by **drama1** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 8:50 pm

Davd C. Polich wrote:
drama1 wrote:Hey Dave: First off THANK YOU for your contributions. Any chance of you posting a pgm file of what you consider your best? Thanks again.
I've actually had numerous requests for this. Please understand, I earn
my living as a programmer, so it's not in my best interest to effectively give away any work. That's why I posted the tutorial - to give everyone a basic template for getting a better CX-3 sound.

I wasn't aware. Big thanks for the tutorial though.