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Can't decide

 
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ma



Joined: 30 Jun 2019
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 4:00 pm    Post subject: Can't decide Reply with quote

I'm looking for editing MIDI music and tones, and things that go with this. Have been researching for a year now, or a few years, cannot decide which workstation to order.

I don't like returning them, or carrying them two stairs up into my appartements floor.

The Kross(2) and the Mox(f) have the Zen I'm looking for, not too many knobs and sliders. I don't like the Kross 2 pianos, all sound to me like eq'ed (or mixed?) from few short samples. But I liked the M1 piano sound in general, also the stage piano sounds from 2003 back then.

Sorry, offtopic: I'm interested in the Fa06 too, but the red on black screen and the font look not readable to me. And I read something like saved songs depend on the studio set, and I'm quite bad at organizing things. And I read about a micro piano roll editor in the FA 06 that jumps too much out (back to beginning or so) when you have edited something. New Fantom: Too big and heavy.

Sorry, also offtopic: Yamaha: Interested in Motif series only because they had event lists, Montage/Modx still have not.

Korg Pa4x looks good to me, has what I want, but is big and has styles which I don't need.

Korg Kronos looks good but I have read it doesn't come with orchestra strings, so I didn't understand what sounds I'm supposed to buy and put into the Kronos myself. Also, I cannot hold a stylus, I'm too bad at using a stylus or doing tiny things with my hands.

Any ideas? Appreciate that you have read my post this far, thanks a lot.
Kind regards
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voip
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Joined: 27 Nov 2014
Posts: 2527

PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know where you heard that the Kronos doesn't come with orchestra strings. It comes as standard with a whole raft of probably 80 different and quite decent string sound Programs plus a load more string Combinations, from single violins to orchestral ensembles. Having said that, dedicated orchestral VSTs, like the East West Quantum Leap Symphonic Orchestra, come at a price and with many more nuances and articulations available than the stock strings in the Kronos. The Kronos covers a large number of musical bases, though, and there are some excellent expansions that can be bought, if orchestral is the intended thing. The beauty of the Kronos is that it is possible to buy the Austrian Grand Piano expansion, which is essentially a $400,000 Bosendorfer Imperial, for a little over 100 bucks during the sales.

The Kross and Kross 2 are very useful boards, easy to carry, and easy to use, with a load of useful functionality. The samples used for the piano sounds are not as long or as detailed as they are on the Krome and the Kronos, but you get what you pay for, basically.

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ma



Joined: 30 Jun 2019
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

voip wrote:
The samples used for the piano sounds are not as long or as detailed as they are on the Krome and the Kronos, but you get what you pay for, basically.


This is one of my problems. I like good samples (professional level) with very easy interface (entry level).

The developers do their best to make a good user experience, but they cannot take away the sliders and knobs which can 'kill' my experience from looking at them alone.

Encoders are meant to make it easy, but I don't like them, also don't like touch interfaces (because they are just there to allow more menu diving?). The whole system experience that is an orchestra in a little box cannot be as pleasant as a single instrument, e.g. a piano. I'll never find the perfect workstation.

I had read that someone had to buy a certain orchestra strings sound that came only as demo in the Kronos. So I really have misunderstood this, thanks for explaining it!

I know the EW samples from the composer cloud, grabbed huge (3 TB in total) multi samples in my own format so that I wouldn't have to use VST. That didn't work, too, the CC isn't overall good organized (categories) and my sampler was just boring and unfinished.

Thanks for your help. I'll buy the Kross 2 or the Kronos, or maybe PA, or Roland Fa. Knowing there are all normal samples in the Kronos is very important.

PS: In the beginning I wanted to do a good orchestral piece, but I have no orchestra to re-play it for good sound. So I'm still interested in exploring realism (?) and naturalism (?) via using electronic music gear, but I'm like 70% in favor for just synthesizer sounds. FM sounds good, but triangle and rectangle oscillators sound even better. Aliasing in high octaves is okay, old-digital sounding effects are okay, actually I wanted to order a Sega Genesis emulator from Analogue to get some definite point of view. But the thing turned out to have too many options (planned to create homebrew playing routine).

Kind regards
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voip
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Joined: 27 Nov 2014
Posts: 2527

PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ma wrote:
This is one of my problems. I like good samples (professional level) with very easy interface (entry level).


There is also the Korg Grandstage to consider. It is more Kross-like in its interface, whilst the hardware utilises several of the Kronos' engines, and comes with some piano sounds that Kronos owners have to pay extra to acquire.

The Sound Name List for the Grandstage should give some idea:

https://www.korg.com/us/support/download/manual/0/751/4410/

.
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Musicwithharry
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Joined: 23 Mar 2012
Posts: 468
Location: Anamosa, IA

PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In reading your posts, it seems as though you may not have listened to the demos of these instruments and watched enough videos to really form which direction you want to go. Is there somewhere local and fairly close you can go to that you can actually play the different units to gain a better idea of which one you may like (no matter the brand)?

Most people I know want good samples. Most people I know want a 'band for their buck'.

You cannot compare the Kronos to the Kross. They are in different categories altogether. They are on two opposite ends of the spectrum. The Kronos has really been the leading flagship workstation from ANY company for a number of years. It can and will do just about anything you want a workstation to do. There are libraries available and expansions available to cover most styles of music. It is one of the industry leaders and has been since its release many years ago. Korg keeps adding things to it and third party developers have made many different libraries available for it.

The Kross provides unprecedented 'bang for the buck' functionality in a workstation. It is entry level, for sure, but that does not mean that it is a bad instrument. I actually own 4 of the original Kross 1 keyboards, and I really like them. I get great piano sounds out of them and 2 of them are the 88-key versions (although one of the 88-key versions is being repaired - it was broke when I got it in April 2020 and has been in for repair ever since). I use two of the Kross 1 (a 61-key and 88-key) synths for live work and the sounds are very good, especially considering what I paid for them.

The Kross 2 expands on what the original Kross had and provides more polyphony (120 vs 80) and more piano sounds. It also features more sounds anyway over the original Kross. For an entry level workstation, it is hard to go wrong with it.

Is the Kross going to sound like the Kronos? Not in the level of detail, no, it will not. I do not think that they are really supposed to. With that said, you will still know that they are both from the same company. It is like buying a Lincoln SUV or a Ford SUV. They may have different features, but they are from the same company.

With regard to the PA4X, it is a completely different instrument as well, but still is a Korg. There will still be the familiarity in that. The PA4X is an arranger and features a full sequencer too. It lacks the KARMA engine that the Kronos has, but adds the arranger portion.

I own 22 different synths, many of them are Korg and many others are from Alesis, Behringer, Ensoniq (a company no longer in existence), even more Korg stuff, Kawai, and Roland. Among the Korg synths I own, are the Kross (first generation units), the PA700 arranger, and many others. NEVER before in my career have I had the functionality and such from my gear, that I have now, especially from my Korg gear.

My Ensoniq gear is vintage and most of those pieces are around 30 years old. They also serve a different purpose in my studio than the Korgs do. I bought the Korg PA700 a few years ago (when they first came out) and I can do full arrangements (any genre of music) in the sequencer and also by playing with the styles. Most of the styles from the PA4X can work on the PA700.

I think that it comes down to cost. Do you want to pay around $4k USD for the top of the line flagships (Kronos-88 and PA4X-76)? Do you want to pay $1,300 USD for the entry level units (Kross 2-88 or PA700)? That is an answer that only you can decide. Go somewhere and try them out. Listen to all the video entries in YouTube to really get an idea of what they sound like.

Grace,
Harry
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Alesis Vortex Keytar, Alesis QSR, Behringer Deepmind-12, Ensoniq Avista 7600, Ensoniq VFX, Ensoniq VFX-SD, Ensoniq SQ1+, (2) Ensoniq SQ-R/32, Korg i3 (2020 Version), (2) Korg Kross 1-61, (2) Korg Kross 1-88, Korg Minilogue XD, Korg Minilogue XD Module, Korg M50-61, Korg PA700, Korg X5DR, Korg Z3, Lowrey EZP3, Roland D-05, Roland E-09
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ma



Joined: 30 Jun 2019
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks a lot. I want to write something, but it cannot live up to your experience and patience, I'm in some seldom state of mind.

I would actually buy a Kronos. But some things I avoid like the plague, and touch screens are among them. There is a chance I could use it .. with at first collecting all love inside me .. and grabbing a stylus probably.

A bit over twenty years ago, when Korg had already started their touch screens, I never had a Korg and always wanted one. Instead I remember a tourist information portal touch screen from back then. The screen was behind 0.5 cm air behind 0.5 cm glass or so. It was awful to use, to an extent I cannot desribe. The viewing angle versus touch input was crazy compared to today.... okay, that was not a Korg keyboard, it was my first touch screen experience in general, and ... I still know it.

So, my head is planning - without my heart - writing a (kernel module, then) OS for the raspberry (never head one, just ordered it), free of Windows (and Linux) bloat, synthesizers and effects - either I start becoming better or I start going with the GPL community. I would do everything to avoid other peoples UIs and code, and the Kross and Moxf UIs are the only ones I kind of like.

I'll research Kronos and Fantom a bit more. Though, I like the Kronos already more for its wood at the sides. They match my living room situation. Roland gear looks like gaming chairs for space ship use or so. But I should ignore the look.
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Musicwithharry
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Joined: 23 Mar 2012
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Location: Anamosa, IA

PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ma wrote:
Thanks a lot. I want to write something, but it cannot live up to your experience and patience, I'm in some seldom state of mind.

I would actually buy a Kronos. But some things I avoid like the plague, and touch screens are among them. There is a chance I could use it .. with at first collecting all love inside me .. and grabbing a stylus probably.

A bit over twenty years ago, when Korg had already started their touch screens, I never had a Korg and always wanted one. Instead I remember a tourist information portal touch screen from back then. The screen was behind 0.5 cm air behind 0.5 cm glass or so. It was awful to use, to an extent I cannot desribe. The viewing angle versus touch input was crazy compared to today.... okay, that was not a Korg keyboard, it was my first touch screen experience in general, and ... I still know it.

So, my head is planning - without my heart - writing a (kernel module, then) OS for the raspberry (never head one, just ordered it), free of Windows (and Linux) bloat, synthesizers and effects - either I start becoming better or I start going with the GPL community. I would do everything to avoid other peoples UIs and code, and the Kross and Moxf UIs are the only ones I kind of like.

I'll research Kronos and Fantom a bit more. Though, I like the Kronos already more for its wood at the sides. They match my living room situation. Roland gear looks like gaming chairs for space ship use or so. But I should ignore the look.


I have had a Trinity and I rather liked the touch screen. It was a bit slow, likely because it was the first gen of touch screens for Korg, but I grew to really enjoy using it. The PA700 I have has a touch screen and it really makes me productive, more so than without the touch screen.

The Korg Kross has a backlit LCD screen and it is easy to read. To program my Kross synths, I use the PC editor because I can really move around on that thing and it seems more logically laid out than the LCD screen on the synth itself. I also have an M50 and its touch screen is responsive and works well.

My other synths have LCD screens, except for my Ensoniq VFX and VFX-SD - they have florescent displays that are very bright.

The Kronos is a good way to go; there is A LOT to work with in the Kronos.

Grace,
Harry
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Alesis Vortex Keytar, Alesis QSR, Behringer Deepmind-12, Ensoniq Avista 7600, Ensoniq VFX, Ensoniq VFX-SD, Ensoniq SQ1+, (2) Ensoniq SQ-R/32, Korg i3 (2020 Version), (2) Korg Kross 1-61, (2) Korg Kross 1-88, Korg Minilogue XD, Korg Minilogue XD Module, Korg M50-61, Korg PA700, Korg X5DR, Korg Z3, Lowrey EZP3, Roland D-05, Roland E-09
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Biggles
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Joined: 31 Aug 2017
Posts: 729

PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Given that your are basically considering everything out there in the market and after a year you still cannot decide sort of indicates you are screwed.

The Korg Kross 2 piano sounds realy do suck, I had one a kept it for two years before selling it on. The remainder of the sounds were pretty good and the ability to layer sounds very good as was the tweaking that you can do to the sounds. One issue is that the Menu system is very, very extensive and a lot of button pressing is required. The 61 key version is amazingly light but the downside is that the keybed is not the best but that is also true of the Korg Krome.

Yamaha, would not touch them, piano sounds are great, remainder below par.

Roland FA, I was considering buying one but decided against. Roland have released a lot of upgraded keyboards and I expected them to update the FA to the new Zencore system, alas they have not. It was the 07 model I have played and my research indicated this to be the sweet spot model.

Touchscreens are a way of life now, get over your phobia.

Refine your requirements, concentrate on a budget and play all keyboards in the price range, if you do not do this you will not buy anything.
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Biggles
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Biggles
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Joined: 31 Aug 2017
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Given that your are basically considering everything out there in the market and after a year you still cannot decide sort of indicates you are screwed.

The Korg Kross 2 piano sounds realy do suck, I had one a kept it for two years before selling it on. The remainder of the sounds were pretty good and the ability to layer sounds very good as was the tweaking that you can do to the sounds. One issue is that the Menu system is very, very extensive and a lot of button pressing is required. The 61 key version is amazingly light but the downside is that the keybed is not the best but that is also true of the Korg Krome.

Yamaha, would not touch them, piano sounds are great, remainder below par.

Roland FA, I was considering buying one but decided against. Roland have released a lot of upgraded keyboards and I expected them to update the FA to the new Zencore system, alas they have not. It was the 07 model I have played and my research indicated this to be the sweet spot model.

Touchscreens are a way of life now, get over your phobia.

Refine your requirements, concentrate on a budget and play all keyboards in the price range, if you do not do this you will not buy anything.
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Biggles
Lancashire, UK
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Musicwithharry
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Joined: 23 Mar 2012
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Location: Anamosa, IA

PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have not played the Kross 2, so I really cannot comment on the additional piano sounds. I can only comment on the Kross 1, which I do have. The piano samples, considering the limited amount of memory used for these samples, is actually pretty good. With that said, I have made many of my own and they do meet my needs in the band I play in, and I would also consider them passable for solo piano work.

Are they going to sound like the Kronos? Of course not. They will even sound like the piano sounds on the Krome (which to me, is the 'odd duck' of Korg's workstation line.

To bu a unit because the wooden end cheeks match your decor is a bit shallow, in my opinion. I would look at the features and make a determination based on the features. You can always make a stand that matches your decor and put ANY board in there.

If money is not a factor, then I would go for the Kronos. It really is the best out there.

If money IS a factor, take a serious look at the Kross 2. I would even look at the Kross 1 if you REALLY want to save money.

Grace,
Harry
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Alesis Vortex Keytar, Alesis QSR, Behringer Deepmind-12, Ensoniq Avista 7600, Ensoniq VFX, Ensoniq VFX-SD, Ensoniq SQ1+, (2) Ensoniq SQ-R/32, Korg i3 (2020 Version), (2) Korg Kross 1-61, (2) Korg Kross 1-88, Korg Minilogue XD, Korg Minilogue XD Module, Korg M50-61, Korg PA700, Korg X5DR, Korg Z3, Lowrey EZP3, Roland D-05, Roland E-09
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