Genos2 vs Karma

[ChrisDuncan]

I'm always looking at what comes out in the keyboard market just for the fun of keeping up. I saw Yamaha's release of the Genos2 and wasn't really interested until I saw that it was $5700, right after they released the Montage M8x flagship workstation for $4500. At that point I wondered, what does this do that the Korg / Roland / Yamaha flagships don't to put it at such a higher price point?

After doing some poking around, the Genos series is frequently described as a "Band in a Box" kinda thing with the description of being an arranger rather than a workstation. As I looked into some videos, it seemed like it was essentially doing the same thing as the Kronos using the sequencer and Karma, but without the additional horsepower of a flagship workstation.

As an aside, this seems to be marketed to the people who gig doing singles. I recall back in the day that the guys doing single gigs made more per job than I made working in bands, but most of them were doing good if they could just keep the bills paid. But a $5700 keyboard aimed at them as the market? Maybe singles pay more in Japan than they do in the US.

In any event, I'd be interested in your take on how Karma compares to a dedicated arranger keyboard like this.

[kronoSphere]

Hello Duncan :I completely agree with you.
But I also have to admit that keyboard arrangers are the worst thing for a musician.
These keyboard arrangers are like Artificial Intelligence: they only know what has already been seen (the Deja vu), what has already been heard.

They are incapable of taking fukll of surprises circuitous paths outside the eternal monotone roads so unadventurous of dull music.

Long live Kronos !

♫

[fomalhaut]

Hello Duncan :I completely agree with you.
But I also have to admit that keyboard arrangers are the worst thing for a musician.
♫

There are different types of musicians, I guess. An arranger keyboard like the Genos2 acts as a superb standalone performing tool if you are a solo entertainer, but it would not exactly be the central piece of any production studio.

Karma cannot be meaningfully compared to a fully fledged arranger function and you can easily see that even Korg has a different line of keyboards for that function, keeping the features separate.

[kronoSphere]

you are probably right. But still, arranging keyboards give also bad habits to beginning musicians, and above all, they restrict the field of musical vision.

A bit like those musical instrument demonstrators when they do funk demos on a keyboard, systematically using the sound of an electric piano !

Infinitely reductive too !!!...

[dfahrner]

I used to use KARMA scenes on the Kronos like an arranger, with different customized bass and drum "generated effects" for accompaniment in small-group jazz performance...KARMA can change what it plays according to the MIDI input it gets from the musician (like variations in velocity, note density; randomization, etc.), so it doesn't sound like an arpeggiator repeating the same pattern over and over...several other musicians commented that it was the first time they'd ever heard an "arpeggiator" accompaniment that didn't sound like one...if KARMA had had a few more arranger features (like automatic switching between intros, fills, and ending scenes), and a better (much simpler) editing environment, more musicians could have used it this way...

Artificial intelligence could lead to vastly improved and more natural-sounding arrangers, if anyone can afford to spend the time and money on development for such a small market...see the current issue of "New Yorker" magazine for some indication of what AI can do these days; it's light years past "deja vu")...after reading these articles, I can envision an AI program that listens to all the Miles Davis recordings of his second great quintet, and then generate Ron Carter / Tony Williams parts to play along with you...

df

[faintofasia]

Per ora mi accontento, di utilizzare le performance karma Kronos sincronizzate ad un arranger e devo dire che talvolta il risultato è notevole: il mio sogno però è di avere la tecnologia karma inserita in un arranger, sarebbe molto più semplice, sono anni che attendo tutto ciò

[voip]

^^^ translated = For now I'm content with using the karma Kronos performances synchronized with an arranger and I must say that sometimes the result is remarkable: my dream, however, is to have the karma technology inserted in an arranger, it would be much simpler, I've been waiting for everything for years that is.

.

[kronos_timmmy]

For both kind of keyboards (synth or arranger workstation) there are users who benefit of the functionality of each kind. And also you can find worse examples of so called musicians…
When you use the style-function of an arranger you must be aware that the foundation often is an already complete arrangement of an existing song . But you can easily make variantions that may fit for your porpuse.
I have a similar thought but not with the focus on Karma:
Is it possible to switch to a Genos (I‘m using a K61 with nanoPad for playing the keyboard-parts in cover-bands (Pop/Rock) - Genos1 you can get under 2.500€). Sure - you only have three or four realtime parts (plus four Multipads without velocity); but you can switch seemless with the ten registration-buttons directly above the keybed; you have enough effects, but yes only PCM-(AWM)-sounds (instead of vary sound-engines) but highly customizable realtime controllers with display for the parameters. You have a playlist (Like Setlist)and so on…

[StephenKay]

Per ora mi accontento, di utilizzare le performance karma Kronos sincronizzate ad un arranger e devo dire che talvolta il risultato è notevole: il mio sogno però è di avere la tecnologia karma inserita in un arranger, sarebbe molto più semplice, sono anni che attendo tutto ciò

^^^ translated = For now I'm content with using the karma Kronos performances synchronized with an arranger and I must say that sometimes the result is remarkable: my dream, however, is to have the karma technology inserted in an arranger, it would be much simpler, I've been waiting for everything for years that is.

Years ago, I tried to interest Korg Italy into making an arranger with KARMA added to it. Not instead of the regular arranger tracks, but with some KARMA modules on top of them. Sadly, it did not come to fruition. Would really have been cool, though, I thought at the time. The best of the arranger features with some randomizable KARMA tracks on top of them. So they did not just repeat the same patterns over and over, but had an element of unpredictability to it.

[fomalhaut]

Posting after Stephen is kind of embarassing because he should have the last word on everything Karma. His words reveal that he conceives Karma as something totally different that an arrangement engine, and it is true because Karma explores the creative aspect of real time algorithmic generation in a way that the fixed settings an arranger will never achieve.

Schema by Native Instruments seems more like a comparable thing:

https://www.native-instruments.com/en/p ... ema-light/

[sjmarano]

Coincidentally enough, I came to the Korg Forum tonight specifically to say how much I am looking forward to pairing a just-ordered PA5X with my venerable Korg M3. I am confident that this combination will be highly synergistic, with the PA5X's more structured styles and the M3's extraordinarily rich and dynamic Karma combis capable of inspiring and spurring the creative juices. I have certainly found that to be the case over the years in jamming with the M3's huge number of Karma combis. My plan/hope is that I can use the PA5X in a similar capacity - not to use its built-in styles to 'parrot' existing songs but rather to use and modify them as well as create new styles and backing tracks with which to jam and compose new songs. But to be clear, I view the PA5X and M3 as complements to each other - namely to perform and enjoy each instrument in more or less the manner in which each was designed. I don't have illusions about attempting to do what Stephen Kay mentioned in his post - namely to have the PA5X styles interact in real time with M3 combis. That's beyond my knowhow. Though that certainly would have been a wonderful thing to see!