Proposal - User Community Funding for New Features

Rob Sherratt · Post by **Rob Sherratt** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:50 pm

Please read to the end before you vote.

New features and facilities on the Korg OS for the Pa800 and Pa2x cost money to develop. At the moment the user community has little influence with Korg on new developments. I would like to suggest that any users interested to take an active role in specifying new requirements, contribute on a subscription basis, say 100 Euros per year, to a "user requirements" group on this forum. To start the ball rolling there is an initial sum of money amounting to about 3,000 Euros that has been offered (I may be able to give more information about this in a later post).

My view is that 100 Euros per year would be a good investment compared with the initial cost of the keyboard, to ensure that its facilities stay at the leading edge of the market. It will also strengthen the ties between the user community and Korg Italy. If 100 people join the requirements group, then with funding of 10,000 Euros per year, a lot can be done to provide exactly the new features that you want on your keyboard.

I've already written to Korg to ask whether such a proposal would be of interest to them, and I will of course report back on whether anything like this would be possible. If this idea is unacceptable to Korg then of course I can do nothing about it. But they are very nice people and I'm hopeful.

Anyway, at the moment I am just asking for members of the forum to "vote" in an anonymous way by pressing the appropriate "Yes" or "No" button above, whether you would like to join the requirements group on the basis of a subscription of 100 Euros per year. This will not commit you in any way and there is no way I can trace who voted "yes" and who voted "no".

All new requirements from the group would be prioritized in a democratic manner by group members, and the top requirements would be submitted to Korg Italy for cost estimates to be given. If the group agree the costs then funds from the group would be used to pay for the development.

garabed02 · Post by **garabed02** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:11 pm

HI Rob

Its a very good idea. But is that mean, if we participate and if we ask a new feature, they will make it... Because if there is a lot of person participating,everyone want something and it will be very hard and will take a lot of time for them.(because like you know, I think a lot of person will be interesed, me first, but there is everytime something we will want)

Excuse me if I dont understand all.

Regards

BasariStudios · Post by **BasariStudios** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:39 pm

No! Thats wrong! First let them fix what they promise us for the money they
STOLE from us, giving them more money means more headache back.
For a 2500$ and 3500$ machine i think we paid a lil more then enough.
They cant fix the CRAP that exist now nevermind putting more BS on the synth.

shay2165 · Post by **shay2165** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:50 pm

you simply right nedim. i still waiting for the pa800 os that fix my big freezing problem.

Rob Sherratt · Post by **Rob Sherratt** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:55 pm

Nedim wrote:No! Thats wrong! First let them fix what they promise us for the money they
STOLE from us, giving them more money means more headache back.
For a 2500$ and 3500$ machine i think we paid a lil more then enough.
They cant fix the CRAP that exist now nevermind putting more BS on the synth.

Nedim,

Please could you justify your statement with a critique of OS v1.1 and MR v1.1 for the Pa2x?
I know that the same fixes are due out very soon in a new release for the Pa800.

robkeith · Post by **robkeith** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:00 pm

Hi Rob,

if this is for features over above and beyond what Korg would facilitate as way of normal updates and upgrades, then $100 euro to join would be great idea. I can understand the other members expressing thier negativness towards this proposal now, as there still seem to be some problems with the PA2X pro and PA800 as we speak. Could you please read my last message PA2x Pro Freezing etc. Please could you eleborate on what likely outcomes or requests to Korg we might make, so as to give the other members an idea of the over and beyond requests, that could make this keyboard sensational for years to come

Thanks
Rob Keith

shay2165 · Post by **shay2165** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:10 pm

dear rob.

you need to understand that pa800 bugs caused to users discomfort..

take me for example : i sold my roland g-70 and buy the pa800 and i love this kb but it's not worthless the freezing problems that you on stage.
it's my job.

BasariStudios · Post by **BasariStudios** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:41 pm

Rob, i would copy it here but its in Serbian, if you want i can link you there.
I cannot really make hard statements on the PA2X but the things said are
facts from very good coleagues of mine and really experienced people in
sound and style designing, the bigest issue with the new OS now is distorted
sounds on most of the samples and there is a lot of other stuff.
As for PA800 i dont even wanna start, all of us went thru it and not even the
creator of PA800 can tell me stuff about the synth now, it still in its baby steps.

Rob Sherratt · Post by **Rob Sherratt** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:43 pm

Of course the user community would not pay for "bug fixes" that would be expected as matter of course.

I know how distressing it has been for both Pa2x and Pa800 users to have the "freezing" problems and it must be frustrating to Pa800 owners that the new OS that fixes most of these problems was released for the Pa2x first. I was told by Korg that the Pa800 new OS release is due very soon.

My proposal is for things that are not defects but are enhancements that will make life for the user community much easier.

Example 1: Korg have told me that they could produce an API (Application Programmer Interface) library for manipulating all files within a .SET folder. The availability of such an API would make the development that MickB is doing much easier (ie to create custom libraries of user sounds and user styles, automatically repositioning the sample ID's so there are no conflicts, solving incompatibility problems between .SEt files from different Pa keyboards and different OS releases). But who will pay for it, where is the commercial gain for Korg?

Example 2: The Guitar Mode implementation can not record and play back the original "guitar mode" event information from external sequencers because at the moment there is no facility to set a MIDI In or MIDI Out channel to "guitar mode". Korg could easily provide this facility. But who will pay for it, where is the commercial gain for Korg in enabling ease of use with external sequencer products?

Example 3: The Lyrics facilities could be enhanced to allow non-english character sets and different fonts, maybe also allowing users to edit lyrics associated with MP3 recordings and SMF files (which can not be done on the Pa keyboards at the moment)

I don't mean to imply that these are the top requirements for enhancements, the prioritisation would be decided by democratic vote from subscribers to the requirements forum, if indeed people want one.

If you don't think there is merit in my suggestion, then what alternative proposals do you have that would enable the user community to establish a closer relationship with Korg that is to the benefit of all users?

PA800dude · Post by **PA800dude** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:21 am

Dear Rob

Yes, I would pay for things you listed as Example 1, 2, 3 if the price is reasonable like the one you posted. For bug fixes, in the OS, I would not pay for; since it is an ethical responsibility of the company, when selling software or product using software, to sell the software in a "stable state".

I have a question. If we each, who ever needs the following, paid additional money (200 Euro, 400 Euro), would KORG be able to expand the size of the sampler for Korg PA800, maybe one that is used through USB (i dont know much about this so I do not know if it is possible)??? Hardware option that you just plugin into the USB port and you get additional 128MB or whatever. I would rather pay 500 Euro for something like this than pay 3000 for a new arranger which also might not have what I need. I know there are other solutions like a sampler from a third company, but I want something that you just plugin in with PA800 and it is 100% compatible and do not have to setup anyhing it works right away.

Post by **Sharp** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:48 am

Can't see this ever happening guys.

I would imagine that the development of a new feature would require different resources within KORG, and realistically10K won't go far in paying the wages of a few people.

Regards.
Sharp.

greenkidd · Post by **greenkidd** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 1:44 am

I'm all for new features but feel they are dragging a bit regardless if they are paid or not. v1.51 was released last August and we haven't seen any new features in 9 months? The new PA800 version will be just bug fixes? In 9 months? It's kind of difficult to get excited about paying for future enhancements. I would pay for a true chord sequencer however.

Brian

Q.E · Post by **Q.E** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:53 am

Sharp wrote:Can't see this ever happening guys.
I would imagine that the development of a new feature would require different resources within KORG, and realistically10K won't go far in paying the wages of a few people.
Regards.
Sharp.

agree with sharp !

rob that is an outstanding idea, but i don't think it would ever happen! 10k is just their one day lunch $$..

but i believe KORG engineers takes these NEW ideas from people and they would consider what they failed to do properly from their earlier models, and will correct the issues with their NEW models, they want you to spend more $$ by buying their new products, instead of working with their old models, the reason for that is :

technology with electronics change overnight , specially NOW with software abilities..

just like roland, people were dying for 808 and 909 drum machines for ages, they would sell over price on ebay, but few years later roland came with newer models of that series , bubbled th prices and sold millions of them ....that mean wait for pax3...lol

sound4sina · Post by **sound4sina** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:04 am

Rob Sherratt wrote: Example1: But who will pay for it, where is the commercial gain for Korg?

Korg should do the right things from the very first beginning, and the users will have more confidence and belief in their products.

Example 2: But who will pay for it, where is the commercial gain for Korg in enabling ease of use with external sequencer products?

How many users do you think use the sequencer, and how many have the skills to perform sequencing?

If you don't think there is merit in my suggestion, then what alternative proposals do you have that would enable the user community to establish a closer relationship with Korg that is to the benefit of all users?

Anyone working with products and product development knows the importance of a close customer-developer relation which the developer/company has to establish. Why would they bother to develop such features for a certain demanding audience, when the majority of users are not members here to take part of this democratic act, and what if this majority of users outside the community are craving for new products and innovative features that doesn't imply new tangible features. Korg will for sure not even bother to participate in such risky operation as they can afford to lose the minority of complaining and needy users. There is a dead-end consumer road, and all the roads will in one or other way lead you to get a new board and not begging for software updates.

I also don't think that the money donated in this way would cover the real costs of development, salaries and prototype/testings. Don't let them carve something new, just let them finish this one first and I am sure many will be happy with that.

Rob Sherratt · Post by **Rob Sherratt** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:57 pm

Here is a recent post from MickB who started the development of a Sound and Style management utility to allow users to merge sounds and styles from many sources and handle the remapping relationship between style elements referencing user sounds that need to be relocated.

Mickb wrote:at the moment I have to put the project on hold because I am waiting for Korg to release a .DLL library file which will allow for the decompressing of the style data so that the style elements can be read and manipulated apologies for anyone who is waiting for this project to be completed.

The development (by Korg) of this .DLL library is exactly the sort of thing than needs to be sponsored and specified by a user requirements forum.

I was hoping for a better level of response and enthusiasm for this than has been received so far. A 50-50 yes and no vote, together with some very negative comments, is just not good enough for me to contemplate doing this and coming up with the 3,000 Euros seed funding. Also there are several other software developers and project managers who are members of this forum who want to create a developer community around a set of "Open API's" so that we can build many of the utility programs that are currently not available. The risk is that without user community involvement and sponsorship, then the things we need like these style management utilities and the necessary Korg .DLL to read the style and sound files on a PC may never happen.

Some people assert that this sort of interaction with Korg can never happen. Some people questioned whether the user community could organise the production of the "Arranger Secrets" DVD's which are now here and the next batch of 200 sets of DVD's being sent out this week. Maybe a set of DVD's can be produced specially for the Pa800 and Pa2x? Maybe a fourth DVD can be produced covering some of the subjects we ran out of time to film the first time around?

Have faith and support each other's efforts my friends. If you support the idea of a requirements forum and are enthusiastic about it, then Korg will help us make it happen, just like they committed resources to help us promote the "Arranger Secrets" DVD's.

Also maybe we can influence Korg to create a web-based trouble ticket system so that defect reporting can be managed in a more visible way to give users confidence in what Korg are working on? Maybe one of us is already working on a web solution for this that will be offered to Korg free of charge? People can be very creative and innovative and charitable if they feel that their efforts are appreciated by their friends.

I'm well aware that 10,000 Euros is a drop in the ocean compared with the cost of a development team. But even this small amount of money demonstrates commitment and focusses minds and builds bridges. It is easy to be critical and to tear down and destroy. I urge forum members to be more positive and constructive - because in my experience of 25 years as a software developer and project manager, it is the way that problems get solved.

Korg Forums

Proposal - User Community Funding for New Features

Would you like to join the requirements group on a subscription basis of 100 Euros per year?

Proposal - User Community Funding for New Features

It would depend???