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Wavestation waveforms and Kronos
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drchris
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 4:14 am    Post subject: Wavestation waveforms and Kronos Reply with quote

I have read that the Wavestation waveforms are all included in Kronos. Are these in the factory wave seq's, on the DVD or somewhere else?

I would like to start playing with porting some of the legacy wavestation sounds into my Kronos but obviously I need the base waveforms to start this process.

Any help?
Thanks!
Chris
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danatkorg
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:13 am    Post subject: Re: Wavestation waveforms and Kronos Reply with quote

drchris wrote:
I have read that the Wavestation waveforms are all included in Kronos. Are these in the factory wave seq's, on the DVD or somewhere else?

I would like to start playing with porting some of the legacy wavestation sounds into my Kronos but obviously I need the base waveforms to start this process.

Any help?
Thanks!
Chris


They're in the "ROM" bank Multisamples. The Wavestation ROM is 0488 Soft EP through 0971 VS155; samples from the optional PCM cards follow.

- Dan
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drchris
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Dan!

I am continuing to love this machine!

Chris
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Slovenec
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan,

You mention that the optional Wavestation PCM card data will be available later on. That's great news. Could this kind courtesy also be made regarding factory and card PCMs and sounds from other older 'vintage'(!) Korg instruments like the M, T and O series or even the Trinity (hey, they're all 90s vintage classics that deserve to be brought back to life in the new Korg flagship!). Heck even the DW8000 should be brought back to life in the Kronos! Smile

Anyway just a suggestion as the waveform size required wouldn't be too large.

Dan whilst Korg are at it, as well as those lovely PA series RX guitar and brass sounds that should also be inside a Kronos, is there any possibility of the MonoPoly being recreated as an expansion instrument (like is available in the Korg Legacy plug ins!). This is one mean vintage Korg machine! Smile

Again, just a suggestion!!
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danatkorg
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Slovenec wrote:
Dan,

You mention that the optional Wavestation PCM card data will be available later on.


I think this was a misunderstanding. I wrote: "The Wavestation ROM is 0488 Soft EP through 0971 VS155; samples from the optional PCM cards follow." As in, they follow starting at Multisample 0972.

- Dan
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Pips



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just wish at some point we get a wavestation exi and M1 exi - that would complete the kronos for me - which i love
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X-Trade
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pips wrote:
I just wish at some point we get a wavestation exi and M1 exi - that would complete the kronos for me - which i love


Everything you need should already be in HD-1. It would be entirely redundant.

It's an odd approach to it, but you should perhaps try to limit your editing to only the basic parameters. Approximate the editing facilities of the M1 by ignoring all the more modern complex bits perhaps?
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Slovenec
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

X Trade: good point about limiting your editing parameters but the M/T/O series had certain waveforms like the pole, lore, koto-trem that were unique to those instruments. Whilst these waveforms were used to death in many sounds, they're still unique and timeless sounds that are still great today.

I have a T3ex and no Trinity, Triton or M3 could ever replace the 'softstrings' based string programs in that instrument! The M1 nylon string guitar might be one of the most cliched sounds but I seem to use it very often at gigs. The same goes for the other acoustic guitar sound and the 12 string guitar, not to mention layering these guitar sounds with the koto trem sound and a nice analog/string pad for when we play those classic Croation/Dalmatian tunes!
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SanderXpander
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought that all those waveforms were also on the Kronos?
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drchris
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SanderXpander wrote:
I thought that all those waveforms were also on the Kronos?


Yes, that's the point. In response to my question Dan let us know where to look for them. I'm planning on spending time tomorrow afternoon working on converting a couple of wavestation patches. I'll post back here any problems or hints that I run into.

Chris
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cynkh
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

drchris wrote:
SanderXpander wrote:
I thought that all those waveforms were also on the Kronos?


Yes, that's the point. In response to my question Dan let us know where to look for them. I'm planning on spending time tomorrow afternoon working on converting a couple of wavestation patches. I'll post back here any problems or hints that I run into.

Chris


I have noted a few differences which might complicate the process of converting Wavestation patches.

First, the absence of the actual wave sequences. This is not a huge problem since the Kronos has a wave sequence section (with a ton of user program space available). You have to access this via the global mode but once you've created the wave sequence(s) (which is eminently doable since all the waveforms are there) it's just a "simple" matter of building patches based on them.

Second, patch structure on the Wavestation consisted of up to 4 parts. The Kronos allows up to 8 multisamples per Osc and 2 Osc's per program but there are only the 2 amps/EG's to crossfade between in program mode (which would be comparable to the WS's patch mode). This can be made up for by the fact that the Kronos allows up to 16 programs per combi (combi mode comparable to the WS's performance mode) but it means splitting up 3-or-4-part WS patches into 2 Kronos HD-1 programs and then doubling the number of programs used in combi mode. This also means that some functionality boundaries get blurred between prog/combi modes which would be very distinct with the WS's patch/perf modes.

Third, the Wavestations allowed for oscillator sync when 2-4 parts are used in a patch. The HD-1 is missing this functionality. It may be possible to make up for this by using the MOD-7 engine but this further blurs the distinction between modes making it difficult to programmatically convert from WS to Kronos.

Altogether, however, I think that all of the functionality (and obviously a whole lot more) is present in the Kronos and will be interesting to see (or rather hear) the kinds of innovative uses folks come up with for the Kronos. In the meantime, I will be hard at work trying to crack the WS-conversion nut! Razz

Cheers!
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drchris
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cynkh wrote:

First, the absence of the actual wave sequences. This is not a huge problem since the Kronos has a wave sequence section (with a ton of user program space available). You have to access this via the global mode but once you've created the wave sequence(s) (which is eminently doable since all the waveforms are there) it's just a "simple" matter of building patches based on them.

Second, patch structure on the Wavestation consisted of up to 4 parts. The Kronos allows up to 8 multisamples per Osc and 2 Osc's per program but there are only the 2 amps/EG's to crossfade between in program mode (which would be comparable to the WS's patch mode). This can be made up for by the fact that the Kronos allows up to 16 programs per combi (combi mode comparable to the WS's performance mode) but it means splitting up 3-or-4-part WS patches into 2 Kronos HD-1 programs and then doubling the number of programs used in combi mode. This also means that some functionality boundaries get blurred between prog/combi modes which would be very distinct with the WS's patch/perf modes.

Cheers!


You've hit on some of the same issues I'm running into. I'm playing with Bender Mini - Rom 9, Performance 4 from the Wavestation (Legacy).

The waveforms are easy to find in the ROM banks just where Dan pointed to. I'm able to make a wavesequence that approximates the one in the Wavestation in global mode. Of note, the duration units in the wavestation seem to be arbitrary units. Each of the 7 waveforms in the example use a duration of "21" with a xfade of "21". To approximate this, I used about 360 ms for each in the wavesequence in the Kronos. My crossfading is still not nearly as smooth as the wavestation, so this is something I have to work on.

You additionally point out that there is not an ideal engine to replicate the wavestation and, based on my current understanding, I agree. My example uses four oscillators all with slight variations on the wavesequence (i.e. fine tuning). I suppose your suggestion of two programs added together in a combi would be the way to go. Actually, the the wavestation performance, two instances of the 4 oscillators are used, so in reality, I need 8 oscillators. I could make this example with a single osc program and create the subtle differences in pitch control in the combi itself.

Any other thoughts that you guys have would be much appreciated!

Chris
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rrricky rrrecordo
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wavestation Legacy is pretty cool, but to my ears it is somehow missing the richness of the original hardware (I have the SR). I pull up Northern Lights and all's well with the world - twinkly tinklies Smile
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cynkh
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

drchris wrote:

You've hit on some of the same issues I'm running into. I'm playing with Bender Mini - Rom 9, Performance 4 from the Wavestation (Legacy).

The waveforms are easy to find in the ROM banks just where Dan pointed to. I'm able to make a wavesequence that approximates the one in the Wavestation in global mode. Of note, the duration units in the wavestation seem to be arbitrary units. Each of the 7 waveforms in the example use a duration of "21" with a xfade of "21". To approximate this, I used about 360 ms for each in the wavesequence in the Kronos. My crossfading is still not nearly as smooth as the wavestation, so this is something I have to work on.

You additionally point out that there is not an ideal engine to replicate the wavestation and, based on my current understanding, I agree. My example uses four oscillators all with slight variations on the wavesequence (i.e. fine tuning). I suppose your suggestion of two programs added together in a combi would be the way to go. Actually, the the wavestation performance, two instances of the 4 oscillators are used, so in reality, I need 8 oscillators. I could make this example with a single osc program and create the subtle differences in pitch control in the combi itself.

Any other thoughts that you guys have would be much appreciated!

Chris


Thanks for the feedback (and reinforcement! Smile). I've got the original Wavestation and WS-SR manuals so I'll compare the range of the units of measurement for both of those devices with the range on the Kronos and see if I can work out some sort of conversion- whether linear or not. That could help with the programmatic conversion of patches from WS to Kronos.

How often does the sync feature get used on the WS and how effective is it? I'm curious if this is one of those features that may not even be worth emulating on the Kronos. The problem is that if wave sequences are used then the HD-1 engine needs to be employed which does not include a sync feature. It may be possible to pull an AL-1 or MOD-7 (or MS-20EX) instance into the combi to emulate that functionality but this introduces a huge layer of complexity with weighing candidate engines from an original WS patch/performance and also reduces the number of slots available for programs in the combi. So if one has a WS performance with all 8 slots in use each with 4 parts per patch and each including a wave sequence and sync this may be an impossibility on the Kronos with its architecture.

One other thing I've noticed is that the option for MIDI-synching the wave sequences on the WS is global whereas on the Kronos it's stored per sequence. It may be necessary to create 2 global banks on the Kronos: one for MIDI-synched sequences and another for "free-run" or "purely-timed" sequences.

I'll be continuing to tinker with the wave sequences today to programmatically (are we sick of that word yet? Razz) convert from the WS (KLC'07) banks to a nice, unified global bank on the Kronos. I'll have a program file with all the wave sequences available either for download or email to anyone interested.

Cheers!
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cynkh
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rrricky rrrecordo wrote:
Wavestation Legacy is pretty cool, but to my ears it is somehow missing the richness of the original hardware (I have the SR). I pull up Northern Lights and all's well with the world - twinkly tinklies Smile


That's another good point. It might be possible that the Kronos will ultimately sound every bit as good as the SR since it has more professional DACs (and is Korg hardware). Although, there is something to be said for the philosophy of "if it's a Wavestation SR sound you're after, get a Wavestation SR"! Smile

Cheers!
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