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Night Spirit
Full Member
Joined: 29 Nov 2011
Posts: 113
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 Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:42 pm Post subject: Replacement Kronos on the way :( |
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| Sad to say, after the Namm show and a long talk with Korg I had to get mine replaced. I have a new one on the way with the updated RH3 key bed, and the Issues mine had checked out to make sure it's not on the replacement. Sad since I really did not want to replace this board so quickly, but glad the issues are being taken care of, so I can get back to tracking and have a correctly functioning board. I will give full details on the new key bed, once I get some real time on it, and can compare the new version vs the old version. |
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Ultimate Dj
Platinum Member
Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Posts: 1312
Location: In The Wind
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:29 pm Post subject: Re: Replacement Kronos on the way :( |
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| Night Spirit wrote: | | Sad to say, after the Namm show and a long talk with Korg I had to get mine replaced. I have a new one on the way with the updated RH3 key bed, and the Issues mine had checked out to make sure it's not on the replacement. Sad since I really did not want to replace this board so quickly, but glad the issues are being taken care of, so I can get back to tracking and have a correctly functioning board. I will give full details on the new key bed, once I get some real time on it, and can compare the new version vs the old version. |
Sorry you had to go through the hassle but I'm happy you got it all worked out! 
Why did you have to replace it?
Cheers
_________________
Generic is the Enemy, I am a mercenary and Music is my weapon.
- Sir Dancelot |
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Night Spirit
Full Member
Joined: 29 Nov 2011
Posts: 113
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| From the start my Kronos had issues with the mechanical settings on the piano. Damper/res/mechanical/key noise. Had to have it all set to -25db or I would hear the noises really loudly in my tracks. If I had it at 0db which it comes as, you press the damper and you hear this whooshing sound, you hit the key and it be really present and annoying. Played the Kronos at the Namm show they had they're set to 0db and it sounded realistic, damper pedal did not make the noises. Talked to Rich one of the designers about my issue, he assured me it's a issue with the board and will cause more problems down the road and I needed to get it taken care of. Also was having issues with hissing in my tracks as I let notes ring out. In the back round I would have a buzzing/hissing noise in all my tracks as I let the notes play out with the damper on. I was told this issue is also the same issue that caused all the other noises in my keyboard. Also had on occasion's not often very rare, mis fires on key's as well as a triple hit. Mostly heard when on organ not much on the piano's. |
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michelkeijzers
Approved Merchant
Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 9113
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Night Spirit wrote: | | From the start my Kronos had issues with the mechanical settings on the piano. Damper/res/mechanical/key noise. Had to have it all set to -25db or I would hear the noises really loudly in my tracks. If I had it at 0db which it comes as, you press the damper and you hear this whooshing sound, you hit the key and it be really present and annoying. Played the Kronos at the Namm show they had they're set to 0db and it sounded realistic, damper pedal did not make the noises. Talked to Rich one of the designers about my issue, he assured me it's a issue with the board and will cause more problems down the road and I needed to get it taken care of. Also was having issues with hissing in my tracks as I let notes ring out. In the back round I would have a buzzing/hissing noise in all my tracks as I let the notes play out with the damper on. I was told this issue is also the same issue that caused all the other noises in my keyboard. Also had on occasion's not often very rare, mis fires on key's as well as a triple hit. Mostly heard when on organ not much on the piano's. |
I only hear a lot of mechanical noise when I play the Kronos from another synth (Midi out -> Midi In at Kronos). Because then a velocity of 64 is used for the mechanical noise (release velocity?) ... when you play it from the Kronos directly it is equal the the key (press) velocity (not release velocity). I think in the sequencer the release velocity is not recorded so set to 64 always.
_________________
Developer of the free PCG file managing application for most Korg workstations: PCG Tools, see https://www.kronoshaven.com/pcgtools/ |
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SeedyLee
Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 1371
Location: Perth, Australia
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:45 am Post subject: |
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| michelkeijzers wrote: |
I only hear a lot of mechanical noise when I play the Kronos from another synth (Midi out -> Midi In at Kronos). Because then a velocity of 64 is used for the mechanical noise (release velocity?) ... when you play it from the Kronos directly it is equal the the key (press) velocity (not release velocity). I think in the sequencer the release velocity is not recorded so set to 64 always. |
I thought the Kronos supported true release velocity, rather than simply using the note on velocity as the note off velocity?
It's always seemed to me that the note off velocity - and associated mechanical sounds - are quite independant of the note on velocity? For example, if I play a chord very softly so as to not make a sound, and then release quickly, I get loud release noises. If I release softly, I get soft (or no) release noises. But I haven't checked with a MIDI monitor.
_________________
Current Equipment:
Korg Kronos 2 88, Reface CS, Roland JV-1080, TE OP1, Moog Subsequent 37, Korg ARP Odyssey, Allen & Heath Zed 18, Adam F5, MOTU MIDI Express XT, Lexicon MX200 & MPX1, Yamaha QY700, Yamaha AW16G, Tascam DP008ex, Zoom H6, Organelle, Roland J6 & JU06A
Previous: Triton LE 61/Sampling/64MB/4GB SCSI, MS2000BR, Kronos 1 61, Monotribe, NanoKontrol, NanoKeys, Kaossilator II, Casio HT3000, Roland VP-03, Reface DX, Novation Mininova, MPC One |
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michelkeijzers
Approved Merchant
Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 9113
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| SeedyLee wrote: | | michelkeijzers wrote: |
I only hear a lot of mechanical noise when I play the Kronos from another synth (Midi out -> Midi In at Kronos). Because then a velocity of 64 is used for the mechanical noise (release velocity?) ... when you play it from the Kronos directly it is equal the the key (press) velocity (not release velocity). I think in the sequencer the release velocity is not recorded so set to 64 always. |
I thought the Kronos supported true release velocity, rather than simply using the note on velocity as the note off velocity?
It's always seemed to me that the note off velocity - and associated mechanical sounds - are quite independant of the note on velocity? For example, if I play a chord very softly so as to not make a sound, and then release quickly, I get loud release noises. If I release softly, I get soft (or no) release noises. But I haven't checked with a MIDI monitor. |
Are you sure about that last? I really thought the keybed does not have release velocity, however the engine supports it. Maybe a difference between 61 and 73/88 version? (I have a 61).
_________________
Developer of the free PCG file managing application for most Korg workstations: PCG Tools, see https://www.kronoshaven.com/pcgtools/ |
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rob314159
Full Member
Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Posts: 249
Location: Virginia, US
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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| michelkeijzers wrote: | | SeedyLee wrote: | | michelkeijzers wrote: |
I only hear a lot of mechanical noise when I play the Kronos from another synth (Midi out -> Midi In at Kronos). Because then a velocity of 64 is used for the mechanical noise (release velocity?) ... when you play it from the Kronos directly it is equal the the key (press) velocity (not release velocity). I think in the sequencer the release velocity is not recorded so set to 64 always. |
I thought the Kronos supported true release velocity, rather than simply using the note on velocity as the note off velocity?
It's always seemed to me that the note off velocity - and associated mechanical sounds - are quite independant of the note on velocity? |
Are you sure about that last? I really thought the keybed does not have release velocity, however the engine supports it. Maybe a difference between 61 and 73/88 version? (I have a 61). |
According to the Operation Guide (page 50):
(For the SGX-1): "Subtle performance nuances integrate seamlessly with
the KRONOS hardware, including release velocity and
damper pedal velocity."
(For the EP-1): "Subtle performance nuances integrate seamlessly with
the KRONOS hardware, including release velocity and
damper pedal velocity."
And from an interview with Rich Formidoni and Dan Phillips at Synth Music and Electronics (Jack Hertz's Blog):
"Has anything changed with the number and or functionality of the modulation routings?
DP: Support for release velocity is new; the keyboard transmits it via MIDI, and it’s integrated into both the EP-1 and SGX-1 for subtle control of mechanical key-off noises. The SGX-1 also supports sustain pedal velocity, for controlling the damper pedal noise. Pedal velocity requires that you use a half-damper pedal, which generates a continuous value instead of being just an on/off switch.
The number of available modulation routings is pretty impressive. I just counted over 270 in the MOD-7, for instance, all of which can be active simultaneously - plus the 8 “AMS Mixers,” which let you process modulation signals in various ways (smoothing, quantizing, reshaping, multiplying etc.)."
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Yamaha S80, Kronos 61. |
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michelkeijzers
Approved Merchant
Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 9113
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| rob314159 wrote: | | michelkeijzers wrote: | | SeedyLee wrote: | | michelkeijzers wrote: |
I only hear a lot of mechanical noise when I play the Kronos from another synth (Midi out -> Midi In at Kronos). Because then a velocity of 64 is used for the mechanical noise (release velocity?) ... when you play it from the Kronos directly it is equal the the key (press) velocity (not release velocity). I think in the sequencer the release velocity is not recorded so set to 64 always. |
I thought the Kronos supported true release velocity, rather than simply using the note on velocity as the note off velocity?
It's always seemed to me that the note off velocity - and associated mechanical sounds - are quite independant of the note on velocity? |
Are you sure about that last? I really thought the keybed does not have release velocity, however the engine supports it. Maybe a difference between 61 and 73/88 version? (I have a 61). |
According to the Operation Guide (page 50):
(For the SGX-1): "Subtle performance nuances integrate seamlessly with
the KRONOS hardware, including release velocity and
damper pedal velocity."
(For the EP-1): "Subtle performance nuances integrate seamlessly with
the KRONOS hardware, including release velocity and
damper pedal velocity."
And from an interview with Rich Formidoni and Dan Phillips at Synth Music and Electronics (Jack Hertz's Blog):
"Has anything changed with the number and or functionality of the modulation routings?
DP: Support for release velocity is new; the keyboard transmits it via MIDI, and it’s integrated into both the EP-1 and SGX-1 for subtle control of mechanical key-off noises. The SGX-1 also supports sustain pedal velocity, for controlling the damper pedal noise. Pedal velocity requires that you use a half-damper pedal, which generates a continuous value instead of being just an on/off switch.
The number of available modulation routings is pretty impressive. I just counted over 270 in the MOD-7, for instance, all of which can be active simultaneously - plus the 8 “AMS Mixers,” which let you process modulation signals in various ways (smoothing, quantizing, reshaping, multiplying etc.)." |
But still I think the keybed itself does not generate release velocity messages, it's only supported by the SGX/EP engines.
_________________
Developer of the free PCG file managing application for most Korg workstations: PCG Tools, see https://www.kronoshaven.com/pcgtools/ |
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rob314159
Full Member
Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Posts: 249
Location: Virginia, US
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| michelkeijzers wrote: |
But still I think the keybed itself does not generate release velocity messages, it's only supported by the SGX/EP engines. |
I guess I'm confused about what you are asking.
If I play the SGX-1, for example, and turn up the mechanical noise to +6dB to make sure, I can detect differences in the sound based on release velocity.
According to Dan Phillips, the keyboard transmits release velocity via MIDI. I don't have it plugged into a computer, so I can't confirm that myself.
_________________
Yamaha S80, Kronos 61. |
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michelkeijzers
Approved Merchant
Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 9113
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| rob314159 wrote: | | michelkeijzers wrote: |
But still I think the keybed itself does not generate release velocity messages, it's only supported by the SGX/EP engines. |
I guess I'm confused about what you are asking.
If I play the SGX-1, for example, and turn up the mechanical noise to +6dB to make sure, I can detect differences in the sound based on release velocity.
According to Dan Phillips, the keyboard transmits release velocity via MIDI. I don't have it plugged into a computer, so I can't confirm that myself. |
If that's the case it would be great ... that also explains why it doesn't work if you connect a slave keyboard, then it takes always 64 as release velocity (or maybe my Triton Extreme sends 64 default as release velocity). Of course the Kronos cannot know if the slave supports release velocity so it takes the value that is send while the Kronos keyboard supports it. I would have to check if it's really true, would be a very nice feature I wasn't aware of.
_________________
Developer of the free PCG file managing application for most Korg workstations: PCG Tools, see https://www.kronoshaven.com/pcgtools/ |
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SeedyLee
Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 1371
Location: Perth, Australia
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 3:14 am Post subject: |
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| michelkeijzers wrote: |
If that's the case it would be great ... that also explains why it doesn't work if you connect a slave keyboard, then it takes always 64 as release velocity (or maybe my Triton Extreme sends 64 default as release velocity). Of course the Kronos cannot know if the slave supports release velocity so it takes the value that is send while the Kronos keyboard supports it. I would have to check if it's really true, would be a very nice feature I wasn't aware of. |
The Kronos definitely supports sending and receiving of true release velocity. I have checked with a MIDI monitor and the note-off velocity values that are sent for each key correspond to the physical release velocity.
The Triton series do not transmit true release velocity. I think this is why you won't be getting the same effect with the Triton. The Triton always uses a note-off velocity of 64 I believe.
I have the same issue using a Kawai digital piano as a controller for the Kronos - no true note-off velocity means the release soudns generated by the Kronos are always the same value  It makes a surprisingly large difference.
It's unfortunate more keyboards don't transmit or generate note-off velocitites. Any keyboard that uses the dual rubber dome switches for note-on velocity can also use the same timing mechanism for determining note-off velocity. It just seems to be something manufacturers don't bother implementing in software/firmware.
_________________
Current Equipment:
Korg Kronos 2 88, Reface CS, Roland JV-1080, TE OP1, Moog Subsequent 37, Korg ARP Odyssey, Allen & Heath Zed 18, Adam F5, MOTU MIDI Express XT, Lexicon MX200 & MPX1, Yamaha QY700, Yamaha AW16G, Tascam DP008ex, Zoom H6, Organelle, Roland J6 & JU06A
Previous: Triton LE 61/Sampling/64MB/4GB SCSI, MS2000BR, Kronos 1 61, Monotribe, NanoKontrol, NanoKeys, Kaossilator II, Casio HT3000, Roland VP-03, Reface DX, Novation Mininova, MPC One |
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