PA3X Drums

[Chuck]

I was playing out the other day and another musician came up to me and said, "those drums sound like a typical drum machine".
That got me to thinking. I use the Bose L1 Model 2 PA system with 4 B1 subwoofers and the drums still sound like a "typical drum machine. As a former drummer, I consider what he said an insult, but sure would like to fix those drums. They are weak as far as sounding like real drums. The base drum and the snare drums just do not sound good, no matter which set I use. I could go on, so does anyone have any constructive suggestions on how to get more life out of the drums on the PA3X" Thanks

[AntonySharmman]

The base drum and the snare drums just do not sound good, no matter which set I use.(

You really focused to the sensitive weakness of PaSeries !
No sufficient Ambient drumsets for funk & lazz funk styles , though Fx drumkits & dance DK are fair enough !
Therefore external sampled drumkits must be developed in order to override this weakness , as I did
for instance in my commercial resources like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJ7gDG6xAK8

[fResH_]

As me, I dont like the KORGS internal drumkits.. KORG have a bad taste of choosing what drumkits to implent to the keyboard. I just use some snares and kicks from it.

I use my own drumkit samples, that is in my taste that sounds more universal and have that live touch flavor in the sound.

Yamaha, roland and ketron have better drumkits sounds then KORG.

[Chuck]

Both Anthony and FResh are right about Korgs Drum processing. I thought I doing something wrong, but as a former drummer, I realize there is no punch to any of the drum kits. Cymbals can hardly be heard, toms are the same, snares really sound bad and the bass drum sounds like a barrel. I was hoping there was something I cound do internally but so far no luck. Friends, I can't live this way I've got to find better drums.
Anthony, the samples you sent were pretty good, can they be edited, similar to what a drummer would do with his kit, you know, use the tune keys? Just asking. And thanks to you both. Chuck

[AntonySharmman]

Anthony, the samples you sent were pretty good, can they be edited, similar to what a drummer would do with his kit, you know, use the tune keys? Just asking. Chuck

As you probably know , Pa3X has the ability to tune and tweak the drumkit in a style , so you can always find
a way to tune factory kit according to your needs and sound more ambient.
At the other hand using a custom sampled pro drumkit you can achieve everything you want in production level
and of course all external DK samples can be treated the same way that a drummer does to his elements
since Pa3X is fully featured to achieve that !
This way you can really override all phenomenally better Arranger's Drum sets like Ketron's or Tyros 4 , really approaching
Studio standards !

[Chuck]

Thanks once again for your comments. I not sure I'm into ambient. I was brought up with 4-5 piece bands, we did not have the word ambient in our phraseology during those days. So the sound we made was real especially the drums.
I think Sharp is right in that it sounds like a lot of trouble. I will look into editing the drums in each style and see what I can come with. Take care all.

[karmathanever]

I have learned to accept the keyboard "drum" sounds over the years.
My prime instrument for many years (and still is) is drums.
I will never get the awesome sound of my current professional acoustic kit on any keyboard.

However, the PA3X, with its tuning and parameter options for kit traps and cymbals provides a lot of flexibility.

It's like the "piano thing" - the true pianists will never quite be happy with the digital sounds of a keyboard - understandably!!!
Same goes for drummers !!!

It is possibly even harder for drummers - just one cymbal can have many nuances purely depending on how it is played - same for snare drums, tomtoms bass drums etc....

The best "digital" sound of sampled acoustic drums I have found in on my professional Yamaha DTX digital kit - dynamics are very realistic - an example is the "Yamaha Oak Custom" kit.

Good luck with the tweaking......

Pete

[Chuck]

You know Pete what you say is right on. As you and I have discussed earlier, I too am a drummer and know what I like to hear and play. I just have not found it in any of the drum kits. Full mushy base, good snappy snare like the old Ludwig super sensitive snare that was out years ago. Toms that don't sound like congas and cymbals like those that Ziljian makes. You are also right on Yamaha have the best drum sounds, I just don't happen to have a Yamaha product. So it's back to the tweaking board. Thanks and take care. Chuck

[DonM]

Yes Yamaha has great drum kits, BUT, only in synths. They sure don't put them in their arrangers.
Ketron Audya drums are real audio drums, not midi, so they sound live, as they should.
Roland has great midi drums, but don't offer any top of the line arrangers any more.
Good drums are possible with Korg, but why don't they do the work and make them good out of the box?

[karmathanever]

If only they could emulate the current top-of-the-range Yamaha digital kit drums in the arrangers = problem is that they are NEVER being "played" - it's repetitive fixed MIDI velocities.
Tyros drum sounds are OK but the "style drum tracks" are poor to average - Korg way ahead in that regard ....
I think the Audya "humanistic playing" technology is quite good (so I am told - NO first hand experience I'm afraid - Ketron simply forgotten about in Australia)
No matter how good the drum samples are and the associated MIDI tracks, they will never be any more realistic until they can digitally "create" a AI humanistic digital drummer (intelligent velocity system - IVS - there, I've invented something) within the keyboards.

It'll happen one day.... that's when we will all be busy asking questions about our Korg PA9X's

So far I have never heard any arranger keyboard with "real" impressive dynamic variable drumming....

There's my wish Mr. Korg

Pete

[Chuck]

To DonM and Pete. Both of you always have solid informative comments. I'm not real smart on this stuff but I do have a good ear and can tell if things don't sound right. I am trying to get the sounds of the PA arranger to sound like a 4-piece band. In order to do that, I have to figure out ways to separate some of the instruments in each style and edit them so they sound better. If you run the style the way it has been produced you will end up sounding like a machine. I'm going to try to take one of the best drum sets I can find on the arranger and edit the bass, toms, snare, cymbals, etc., and Hopefully I'll get a decent sounding set of drums. I don't need all of the drums they have provided just one good set. I have a feeling this won't easy or even possible, but I'll try. Thanks. Chuck

[AntonySharmman]

I'll make a few remarks based on my occupation and production knowledge that gained since many years.
Notice that I've played many times on Excellent & expensive DKs in studios to accomplish my production ,when was required.
So ...

- Only a Drummer player can really understand if a synth DK is natural , all others just speculate or they do not use the right DK (including factory).
- A real drummer produces a audio power of 1 Kw , so small and cheap loudspeakers can't provide the sufficient picture of a real drummer.
- Audio files concept is totally a joke for pro Musicians , is just an impression game for amateurs & DJs ,since I can't imagine
to use an Arranger as a PC WinAmp or Virtual DJ with pitch stretch in 2013 , since it's far better to hire Musicians or use Studio playback !
Music Industry & Studio Production , never used audio files and UMHO will never do !
Also the somehow acceptable "time slice" method that is required in a few applications , is actually the weaknesses of creating
the "real thing" which is midi events with the real simulated instrument.
- Midi events are present and future Pro status , based on sampling development of clever nuance layers and DFD (streaming)
if vintage instruments requires data size , KronosX started the new "game" and I suppose Pa4X will follow the same pro steps
all other outdated & failed concepts by fundamental principles are just "Jokes" !
- Midi events of 128 velocity gradients can perfectly simulate the exact expression of a drummer based on
skillfully sampled Drumkit elements , and also remember that when editing drummer's velocity events and applying humanize
features we can create the ideal drum pattern that only a few drummers in the world can really achieve in real time !

Ok , you can say that somebody must create at last a Pro Studio Set or at least a decent ambient kit to work with !!!
But notice that Kronos already has three of them , therefore the main reason is always samples magnitude !
Anything else sounds to me just like weakness excuses.

Thanks for reading !

[Chuck]

Wow! Very Tutorial. I guess I better get to tweaking what the PA3 offers and forget about drum machines. Thanks very much for your insight.

[DonM]

I certainly appreciate your impressive resume and respect your judgement. I only ask if you ever owned or played a Ketron Audya.
I have been a full time professional entertainer for 4o plus years, using arrangers as full backing for my vocals since arrangers were invented.
I have owned multiple arrangers, including Korg, Yamaha, Technics, Roland and Ketron.
To this professional, audio files as developed and produced by Ketron are far from a joke. I agree that the future of arranger drums is most likely midi. However at this time, in my humble opinion, no other arranger drums come close to the realism accomplished by Audya audio drums.
I enjoy many of the wonderful features of the PA3X and certainly find the drums useable. However I find it rather insulting to dismiss a rival technology and ridicule those who draw attention to it.
If we are not allowed to encourage Korg, or any manufacturer, to further improve their product, that this may be the wrong venue for me.

[Reuben]

I think the main problem with the drums in Style play is the fact that the velocity never (or rarely) varies. Korg have gone to a lot of trouble with many of the drum sets with up to 6 velocity layers but when used in style mode you only tend to get 1 velocity level being used. The drums to me sound great in most of the midi files I use but these have been humanised in the sense that every strike of the drums is slightly different both in timing and velocity.
It would be great if someone had the time to build a couple of really nice dynamic sounding kits. I was thinking along the lines of 6 velocity layers for all the main sounds in the kit. I don't think it would be necessary to use 6 different samples (p, mf, ff etc) but more along the lines of using the editing effects (tuning, cuttoff, resonance etc) to create a better dynamic over different velocities. Any volunteers from the (ex)drummers?
Alternatively if we could "pick the eyes" out of all the kits and build the perfect kit (for a general purpose kit) this might be another way to go.
Best,
John