E2S: Attack time bug (with samples)!?

h.vel · Post by **h.vel** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:12 pm

... (there is a short version of this issue in the second post, for those who doesn't like/need all details)

Hi guys, I often asked myself why on the Electribe 2 Sampler sometimes a sample (which needs a very short attack time, as eg a kickdrum) has in some situations more "punch" than in other situations. I guess that I found the reason: If AMP EG is disabled, the E2S seems to handle the attack time randomly (it depends how quickly a sample is triggered). For better understanding and reproduce this bug, please follow this steps (it's not complicated and really quick to do):

1) use the factory samples (so start the E2S without your SD card)
2) take a "Init Pattern" and disable the Filter, MFX Send - and also AMP EG (important!)
3) press Play - on pad 9 you here the default sequence of a kickdrum ("019 Hippy") which has 4 beats in 1 bar
4) change the OSC on pad 9 to the sample "048 Atomik" (it's a good example to recognise what I mean)... it will sound a bit "mouldy"
5) now go to the sequencer and change the 4 beats (per bar) to 8 beats (per bar)... you should recognise that the sample "Atomik" will sound much more fresh/punchy as before!

Can you follow? You could also reproduce it manually: just hit pad 9 slowly (not so much triggers per time) - then hit pad 9 more quickly (more triggers per time) So, that means: the quicker a sample is played/triggered, the shorter the attack time is. But why do I think it's the attack time? Please follow this steps:

1) remove the 4 beats/steps you placed in the sequencer before. So now you hear the default 4 beats per bar again... which should sound mouldy again
2) enable AMP EG... you will hear the sample clean and punchy again - same sound like with 8 beats per bar (of course the attack time has to be at "0" - like it is on default)
3) disable/enable AMP EG a few times to get the impression how the difference is...
4) now, when AMP EG is enabled again set the attack time to "2"
5) disable/enable again AMP EG a few times... you will here NO difference!

I hope you guys could follow and hear what I hear. Of course you can reproduce this behaviour with other samples (eg 039 Tite MID, 040 Tite Lo, ...). But of course you just hear it on samples which have a very short and special sound in the beginning (as the punch of a kickdrum). Please share your thoughts!

h.vel · Post by **h.vel** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:43 pm

Ok, here is the shortcut version of this problem (for the lazy ones of us, who doesn't like reading so much

). I think this is a really essential problem, so I decided to make it more "readable":

1) disable AMP EG, Voice Assign: Mono2
2) load sample: 048 Atomik
3) hit the pad quickly (many triggers per time)
4) hit the pad slowly (less triggers per time)

When you hit the pad quickly (3) the sample has much more punch (shorter attack) than if you hit it slowly (4).

Interessted in more details? read the post above.

musicmagus · Post by **musicmagus** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 4:35 pm

I noticed this too. I kind of like it though, as it gives some randomness to the attack of certain kicks (kind of like an analog drum machine) and since the sample attack is consistent if you turn amp eg on, it doesn't bother me much.

h.vel · Post by **h.vel** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 5:08 pm

Sorry, it's understandable for me that you "like" this behaviour?

If you need modulation, take a LFO!?

But how about this: set Voice Assign to Poly2 - and even when AMP EG is enabled the attack is set to "2" (so, the very first part of your sample is missing) - so you NEVER can hear the punch of your kickdrum (or from similar samples)!

Still a nice "feature"?

musicmagus · Post by **musicmagus** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:41 pm

Yes, I'm aware of the way poly/mono modes affect the behavior you describe. Still not a problem for me as I don't do anything with poly kicks.
It is a slightly odd behavior though, doesn't seem to affect every sample.
Turn amp eg on for the samples that are affected (mono mode) and the attack is there, right?

SMK · Post by **SMK** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 8:20 pm

Parameter Guide wrote:Mono1: The part plays monophonically (single notes).
If you continue holding down the first trigger pad, the second and subsequent notes do not retrigger the EG. Use this setting when playing legato. However, retriggering will occur when a one-shot sample is sounded.

Mono2: The part plays monophonically (single notes).
The EG is retriggered each time you press the trigger pad.

Poly1: The part can play chords that share a single EG, filter, amp, and insert effect (pseudo-polyphonic). A maximum of four voices can be sounded. The EG is not retriggered until you release all trigger pads. However, retriggering will occur when a one-shot sample is sounded.

Poly2: The part can play chords that share a single EG, filter, amp, and insert effect (pseudo-polyphonic). A maximum of four voices can be sounded. The EG is retriggered each time you press the trigger pad to play a note.

h.vel, to me you have described the different between mono2 versus mono1 pretty in depth.

Have you tried different velocity setting on your pads? They play a role in this as well.

Anyhow, based on what it sounds like you are trying to get, maybe mono1 would be a better move?

h.vel · Post by **h.vel** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:44 pm

musicmagus, it seems that not every sample is affected, because not every sample has this very short "punch" in the beginning. And I don't speak just about kicks - also basses, snares, leads are affected - I also could recognise it on vocal samples!

Yes, I could turn on AMP EG everytime... But there is a reason why you can switch it off (imagine why "off" is the default state): If you want a sample is played as long as you press a pad, AMP EG has to be disabled. It also has to be disabled if you want to loop a sample. If you want to shorten a sample with Gate Time it also has to be disabled (with decay it doesn't work, because of the unwanted release time). This all wouldn't be possible with enabled AMP EG. And no, I don't want to trigger poly kicks aswell

but maybe other synth sounds with a punch in the beginning?

SMK, no this issue has nothing to do with Mono1/2. Mono1 can't be the solution, because it's for playing legato - and this affects the opposite. Velocity has no influence to the attack time (for testing I disabled velocity anyway).

KG BOOM · Post by **KG BOOM** » Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:23 pm

Im also having problems with this. But more importantly i would like to know how u make samples to play for as long as u hold down the pad, like 'note off' on the mpc..i thought u where stuck with the amp eg on the electribe to cut of the tale off of samples wich i found very annoying!

mikejarod · Post by **mikejarod** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:15 am

KG BOOM wrote:Im also having problems with this. But more importantly i would like to know how u make samples to play for as long as u hold down the pad, like 'note off' on the mpc..i thought u where stuck with the amp eg on the electribe to cut of the tale off of samples wich i found very annoying!

It seems the only way is to loop your samples. But looping for me often comes with clicks and pops. So much I dont use it and gave up on " make samples to play for as long as u hold down the pad". If you ever find another way im very interested.

musicmagus · Post by **musicmagus** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:43 pm

KG BOOM wrote:Im also having problems with this. But more importantly i would like to know how u make samples to play for as long as u hold down the pad, like 'note off' on the mpc..i thought u where stuck with the amp eg on the electribe to cut of the tale off of samples wich i found very annoying!

If you turn the amp/eg button off the sample will play out for its entire length then stop.
If you want it to loop adjust the loop point accordingly.
A perfectly looped sample just needs to loop back to 0.
Making a sound hold out longer than the original sample requires a bit of fiddling to find loop points, and sometimes will not work, depending on the source sample.

volcahelper · Post by **volcahelper** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 9:45 pm

Yes this clicking / weird attack problem is horrible.

Load any kick up and play the pad fast, there will be random clicks. LPF Filter down and clicks will be really obvious. Amp EG on or off doesn't matter, clicks all over the place.

Bassy sounds are way more likely to click. Pitch down a kick and the clicks will pop even more.

colulizard · Post by **colulizard** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 1:45 pm

SMK wrote:
Parameter Guide wrote: Have you tried different velocity setting on your pads? They play a role in this as well.
SMK, can you elaborate on this? Do you mean higher velocity makes it more pronounced (or actually causes this?)

Thanks