Pads getting stuck

Berend · Post by **Berend** » Mon May 26, 2008 12:10 am

Hi all, Hello Korg, Hi Jerry!

On the Karma-Lab forum there is a thread concerning the problem of pads getting stuck. Don't think it was ever mentioned here. I was curious if there is any development on the subject.

My M3 73 has serial nr 997 and started to manifest the problem after 1 month. First pads 1 and 2 and now 3 and 4, while pad 1 seems to have gotten gradually better these past 3 months.

If I may be so bold, the problem does not seem to be too complicated. The rubber pads seem to be able to tilt ever so slightly inside there hard plastic white casings. Also, it seems somehow related to gravity. If I hit the pads on the top half they hardly ever get stuck. When I hit them on the bottom half or a bit off-center bottom or middle they do get stuck.
I get the impression that whatever it is that makes the pads spring back up is connected to all 8 pads. It feels that way when you hit one pad and rest your finger on another. Is there something that can be done about increasing "spring" resistance?

Clearly it makes the M3 unreliable for performances or for recording. It's a nuissance on such an amazing piece of equipment.

I was wondering if there is a simple solution, like silicon lubrication? Please, let me know of any progress.

Thanks and all the best
Berend

Oh, btw, I took the survey last night.

Berend · Post by **Berend** » Sat May 31, 2008 5:34 am

Hi everyone!

Did this problem go away by itself? If so, I'd be delighted to hear about it. If not, I feel that it is really serious enough for us sufferers to be informed. In the automotive and other industries it could well be the subject of a product recall. The way I see it, it makes this otherwise amazing piece of equipment truly unreliable (live performances or recording session). A pad getting stuck or failing to spring back up is a lot like being unable to put the brakes on.

The original thread can be found at:
http://www.karma-lab.com/forum/showthre ... adid=11583

I would be very grateful for any news or developments on this.

Thanks
Berend

Berend · Post by **Berend** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 6:05 pm

Hi again all of you 'sticky pads' Patients,

I posted this on the Karma Lab Forum and thought it really belonged here too:

A simple and affordable little tip that I suggest you all try out before trusting your Sliver Darling to the hands of any ole stranger, even if they're called Tech or Korg. I've executed this very simple procedure a few weeks back and MY PADS HAVE NOT BEEN STICKING EVER SINCE.

No guarantee it'll work for you or for ever but I see no harm in performing this little routine whenever some TLC is required around her sensitive pads areas

Here's The Tip:
I use one of those common white plastic tooth picks, dip the tip in (or spray with) silicone oil (Pig Spit Original for example or stuff to make tires look like new will work too) and trace the circumference of the pad between the white plastic outer sleeve and the pad itself. Make sure to lubricate (JUST VERY LITTLE) that part of the pad that most often catches the white plastic frame/sleeve. Also make sure you go all around the pad. The procedure seems to relocate the pad a bit. A word of caution. The thin tip may brake. No disaster but annoying. Shortening the tip by clipping a bit off will prevent this from happening.

The toothpick I use is of the long-and-thin-pointy-at-one-end-with-a-harp-shape-floss-thingy-at-the-other, white-plastic variety, available in small plastic bulk bags at many a pharmacy. Just wetting the sharp end with the silicone based fluid is enough. You'll figure it out. The higher the quality of the silicone lubricant the better. Pig Spit is my reference, obtainable at any well stocked motorcycle shop.

I’m curious to know if this solves your pads problem too, hoping it will. So much less hassle. I hope you don’t mind letting me know.

Anyhow, if this doesn't do it for your baby, at least you'll both have healthy gums and a shiny bike

I wish you well

sparkie · Post by **sparkie** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 2:15 am

Hi Berend, I actually posted a similiar fix a while back. I used a product called Dry Film by Superlube and it also seemed to help the problem quite a bit. I also checked to see f you could adjust thje spring tension. The pads and keyboard assy are all mounted on the same board and almost impossible to get to the springs that I could see.
Sparkie

Berend · Post by **Berend** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 3:34 am

Hi Sparkie,

I didn't know you did that. Thanks for letting me know. I'm glad to hear that you have similar positive experiences with this approach.

Concerning the spring action, I suggest you check the post on the Karma Lab Forum by Steve aka tranquil_union - http://www.karma-lab.com/forum/showthre ... adid=12220

You'll find very well documented the quest through the innards of his M3 in an effort to solve the pads problem with the help of a Tech. It explains clearly how the spring action is created. Doesn't look there's anything to adjust.

Or go directly to the site where the whole adventure can be found videos, pictures and text - http://neo-genesis.net/English/frames.p ... ts/88.html

I sure wouldn't file stuff away like they did. Looks to me like this would mess up the tolerances of the pads' guidance frame, increasing the friction in a system that appears to be suffering from poor recoil action already. They must have been pretty desperate to do that.

Cheers

EJ2 · Post by **EJ2** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 2:01 pm

Some, not all, OASYS have the same issue. I have one pad that sticks, depending on where I trigger the pad. My first notion was to try to trim down the pad where the sticking seems to occur without losing the trim into the pad housing. But, I decided to think of some alternatives. I like the idea of applying some non-intrusive lubricant such as silicone - so long as residue does not bleed into or onto the rubber cushion thereby deteriorating it and rendering it useless. That would be my only concern. So, I'll wait till I hear from others, especially after a period of time following this application.

Maybe Dan or Brandon or another Korg tech can pipe in here. Anyone?
Cheers,
Eric

sparkie · Post by **sparkie** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 2:19 pm

Berend, yeah great video of the tech doing a homemade fix on it! So their is no real 100% fix for the problem. The design of that pad switch is really strange???????? Poor quality! Why in the hell Korg didnt just use the same thing they used in the Oasys amazes me!! Roland pads also dont have that problem.. My pads still stick even with my fix ..Too bad because someone wanting to use it in a Live Performance makes it unreliable. However, I would rather have the M3 than a Roland G though.. I laughed when I saw the screen on it.. really nice and everything but it isnt a TOuchscreen..God how stupid is Roland?
Sparkie

EJ2 · Post by **EJ2** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 3:26 pm

Hi Sparkie,
If you note my post above, some OASYS are experiencing the sticking pad issue as well.

So, are you saying the lubricant fix is not a fix after all?

Berend · Post by **Berend** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 4:55 pm

Hi guys,

Thanks for sharing your experieces. My point exactly, the pads problem, however bad or mild, makes the M3 unreliable. So this needs a good remedy.

It took me a while before I got my little fix to work 100% (still totally okay for now).
First, to Eric, silicones are inert. That's what made me suggest to get the highest possible quality. I can give you a highly technical run down of he properties of the stuff, but that may bedazzle you

Suffice it to say that silicones are used in much more highly critical equipment (think of hospital equipment, space travel, military and the like) than our M3 or OASYS. It will NOT affect the rubbers, plastics, downstream. In fact, it will protect those quite well even. It is NOT like any of the other oil based lubricants that are often chemically aggressive.

Now, the reason why I insisted on using only very little has to do with time and with dust. Dust will accumulate in any lubricant over time, so there is a potential for gunk to form. On the other hand, over time, silicone can increase contact resistance in electrical switch contacts. Therefore, only apply a tiny little bit of silicone around the perimeter of the pad, it should be sufficient to make sure (with the help of the thin plastic tooth pick applicator) that the silicone stays where you wanted it.

Another thing about silicone is that it will not age, this means that its proprieties will not alter over time. Nor will it evaporate. You really don't need to reapply it often at all.

In the beginning I had the same experience. My three problem pads still stuck a little, especially when struck off-center. So I looked with a backlit loop at the physical tolerances of the pad inside the white plastic guidance frame. The ultimate remedy (so far 100% effective) turned out to be to cut off the thinnest part of the tip of the plastic tooth pick and with the now somewhat thicker and sturdier tip, force-tracing the circumference of the pad, especially in the areas where it tended to get caught. This pushes down ever so slightly any tightness or sharpness between the frame and the pad. The advantage of this approach is that it doesn't really alter the original design's tolerances.

I happen to believe that there is not a whole lot wrong with the pad / rail design. I believe that the problem is more at the level of the manufacturing process. I think that this "pushing" or force-tracing of the perimeter of the pad is even more important than the application of silicone.

So, if you follow my non-destructive approach, very carefully, I am pretty confident that your problems will improve quite a bit, if not disapear altogether. If you have a better tool than the tooth pick I'd love to hear about it. I would only use something of a consistency similar to the plastic. anything else, anything harder, like metal, may be too invasive. All you want to do is bring the tolerances down to how they were probably originally designed. It just came out of the molds a bit sloppy.

All my best
Berend

sparkie · Post by **sparkie** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 3:22 am

EJ2 wrote:Hi Sparkie,
If you note my post above, some OASYS are experiencing the sticking pad issue as well.

So, are you saying the lubricant fix is not a fix after all?

Hi Eric, I never had a sticking problem with my Oasys..and the pads felt much better and I believe were better quality on the Oasys than the M3 pads. Hmm.. That is strange though, so I guess both keyboards have the same type button assy??. Yeah the Dri Film really helps but isnt a 100% fix.. Mine still sticks when I press them a certain way though. Aggravating when it gets stuck too, as the chord keep playing!! Why Korg didnt discover this before production...along with the button numbers wearing off is a mystery to me.

Sparkie

Berend · Post by **Berend** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 5:21 am

Hi Sparkie and Eric,

At the risk of appearing bull headed, I encourage you to try the plastic toothpick approach (Dentek silk floss picks). And try Pig Spit or similar if dry film doesn't do it. Cut off the very finest tip of the pick moisten it with the silicone and trace the pad firmly yet carefully. Look at the pictures of the pad assembly (Karma Lab Forum) and you'll see that it is unlikely you'll reach anything mounted underneath.

You don't need to be a technician to do this and it is cheap and effective. It might save a lot of people a lot of discontent and Korg a lot of time and money too.

jerrythek · Post by **jerrythek** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 2:36 pm

I just replied on Karma-Lab Forums about this issue - please see my post there so I don't have to follow two threads of discussions about this (I can't walk and chew gum at the same time either!):

http://www.karma-lab.com/forum/showthre ... #post67930

Regards,

Jerry

sparkie · Post by **sparkie** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 2:17 pm

I offered Korg my M3 as a test dummy.... since mine definitely has the problem. Will wait and see I guess...
Sparkie

notgeorge · Post by **notgeorge** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:13 am

I, too, have suffered sticky pads, only occasionally so far. What I found to be a solution in my case is:

Don't hit the pads so hard!

I was really pounding out some great horns via the pads, and they would begin to stick after rehearsing this one song a # of times. So I went into the pad controllers ("Page Select" button/ PROG P1/ Pads) and increased the velocity settings so I didn't have to hit them as hard, and they haven't stuck since.

It also makes my fingers feel better..

Notgeorge

Berend · Post by **Berend** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:33 am

Hi notgeorge,

In your case it may indeed be impulse related. For most others that seems not to be the cause. Setting the sensitivity of the pads may be a good solution in your case. One should be able to hit the pads pretty firmly without negative consequences. The construction is very solid.

Thanks for sharing. In case your problems do persist, please follow the thread that is followed by Korg's Jerrythek here:
http://www.karma-lab.com/forum/showthre ... #post67930

By the way, the little fix I performed continues to yield full satisfaction.