Band in a Box styles for Pa2x/ Pa800 - an update

[miden]

Go you good thing!!!

D

[greenkidd]

I also asked PG Music whether BiaB running on a PC could be used with an electronic piano for live accompaniments. The answer is that it can not be used in this way - it can not recognise MIDI chords in real time played on an external keyboard. It is designed to be used with a "sequenced" chord progression that is created in advance for each song.

Hey Rob

Check this out!

http://news.harmony-central.com/Newp/20 ... 008.5.html

[rikkisbears]

Hi Greenkidd,
it's a great program.
I've had it for 2 or 3 days now.

I think it's going to be perfect for creating the BIAB midifiles required for the project.
Gives a bit more control over the BIAB style tracks generated, than BIAB does.
Stil either should be more than adequate.

Hey Rob

Check this out!

http://news.harmony-central.com/Newp/20 ... 008.5.html

[greenkidd]

Hi Greenkidd,
it's a great program.
I've had it for 2 or 3 days now.

I think it's going to be perfect for creating the BIAB midifiles required for the project.
Gives a bit more control over the BIAB style tracks generated, than BIAB does.
Stil either should be more than adequate.

Hey Rob

Check this out!

http://news.harmony-central.com/Newp/20 ... 008.5.html

Hi Rikki

The reason I first posted this was I thought it accepted and recognized midi chord input and worked like an arranger in realtime. Now I'm not so sure....does it? It looks pretty cool and I'm considering getting it.

Brian

[Rob Sherratt]

Hi Brian,

Sorry to interrupt your question to Rikki. None of the PG Music software for the PC is capable of realtime operation triggered by live MIDI chord input from a master keyboard. I wish it was posible but the latency time under Windoze is ... umm, well, it's hard to tell, ... depending when it wakes from its slumber to respond to MIDI input events. The "problem" lies with the internal design of Windoze.

Both BiaB and Realband are very useful to generate your own MIDI arrangements and to act as a composer's workbench. But real time audio response to MIDI inputs is not something they can offer.

Some forum members are hoping to be able to use BiaB and posibly Realband to generate many new real-time styles for the Pa800/ Pa2x. We need to automate the process as far as possible. Rikki is leading the way on defining the process. We have offers from several programmers who will then automate as much as is possible. If we could design, test and organise the development of styles and our style libraries on a PC and download these onto the Pa2x or Pa800 I think it would be the panacea we are all looking for. But Korg seem to be unresponsive in helping in this direction, so it looks like it's down to us users to sort it all out.

I don't know if you are aware, but there are other real-time arranger developments for PC hardware platforms, e.g. Lionstracs Mediatation, running a special version of the Linux kernel with some custom hardware added. This does provide real-time response to chords. Also I think they are using the Motif GUI which is a pretty good user interface. It looks like it might be the shape of the future .... it also looks like a steep learning curve ....

http://www.lionstracs.com/store/ms-x88-pro-p-103.html

[iaoranaemaeva]

None of the PG Music software for the PC is capable of realtime operation triggered by live MIDI chord input from a master keyboard. I wish it was posible but the latency time under Windoze is ... umm, well, it's hard to tell, ... depending when it wakes from its slumber to respond to MIDI input events. The "problem" lies with the internal design of Windoze.

Hmm Rob... this is not the fault of Windows or any latency issue: LiveStyler and OMB are real time arrangers that work perfectly under Windows!. Peter Gannon's initial choice (> 15 years ago) was to give priority to arrangement quality instead of real time operation. That's probably why he always refused to extend BiaB functions to real time (which would have been easy).

Sorry to shock Real Time Arranger enthusiasts (including me ) but a RTA will never reach the potential musical quality of a pre-arranger, simply because it does not know what chord will be played after the present one.

Who can really believe that the best human arranger could write a decent arrangement of a tune without previous knowledge of the whole tune?

[Rob Sherratt]

Hi Alain,

I use full keyboard chords in "advanced chord recognition" mode. I improvise a lot but have the "habit" of forming complex chords between both hands to trigger the arranger and vocal harmonies just before the changes are needed, then I rely on the "memory" function to hold the chord and harmony while I venture off onto some twiddly solo bits.

I think that when played in this way, the real time arrangements from my Pa2x are as good or better than the pre-arrangements from BiaB. I use them both but find the Pa2x inspires more creativity and musicianship.

[iaoranaemaeva]

I use full keyboard chords in "advanced chord recognition" mode. I improvise a lot but have the "habit" of forming complex chords between both hands to trigger the arranger and vocal harmonies just before the changes are needed, then I rely on the "memory" function to hold the chord and harmony while I venture off onto some twiddly solo bits.

Of course - all jazz players use their arranger like that, otherwise it's too frustrating!

I think that when played in this way, the real time arrangements from my Pa2x are as good or better than the pre-arrangements from BiaB.

Please note I insisted on "potentially". May be if you build your own BiaB styles, they should be better than the presets Listen carefully to jazz bass lines generated by the best BiaB styles and compare with the ones of any arranger... Not to mention true breaks, shots, etc. that are out of reach of an arranger.

I use them both but find the Pa2x inspires more creativity and musicianship.

Here I agree completely

[rikkisbears]

Hi Greenkidd,
definately not realtime. as Rob just mentioned.

Just discovered a major bug when saving a midifile generated from a BIAB file in Real Band. As midifile 1 it didn't show up when I loaded the saved file into Powertracks, but when I loaded it into XGWorks, I found it had split the bass & guitar channels into seperate tracks & each track has it's own channel no.
A midifile created in BIAB & loaded into Real Band, then saved doesn't appear to have the same problem.
Totally bizzare & unbelievable no one picked it up before releasing the software.
Isn't the idea behind midifile format 0 & 1 that it can be used on any sequencer that supports both formats??
I'm currently really annoyed.
Hopefully they'll address the problem soon.

[quote="greenkidd

Hi Rikki

The reason I first posted this was I thought it accepted and recognized midi chord input and worked like an arranger in realtime. Now I'm not so sure....does it? It looks pretty cool and I'm considering getting it.

Brian[/quote]

[rikkisbears]

Hi,
don't forget the creators of Jammer also brought out "Jammer Live" which was realtime. It had real potential. It was able to load Jammer styles, to a certain degree ( ie couldn't use all the style parts that Jammer could) but they ended up more or less dumping it after version 1. Informed us there'd be no Jammer Live 2. Most dissapointing.
I tend to think the reason OMB & Livestyler do so well is that they can load PSR styles . OMB also has some great (psr)style creation & editing functions.

For $50 or so & your own soundsource of choice, you've all but got a software psr. I still sometimes use OMB to create the midifiles I use for converting psr style to Korg.
I also use it as a realtime arranger for my Clavinova Piano.
[quote="iaoranaemaeva"]
Hmm Rob... this is not the fault of Windows or any latency issue: LiveStyler and OMB are real time arrangers that work perfectly under Windows!. Peter Gannon's initial choice (> 15 years ago) was to give priority to arrangement quality instead of real time operation. That's probably why he always refused to extend BiaB functions to real time (which would have been easy).

[rikkisbears]

Hi Rob,
eek , you're waiting on me??

OK, there's a couple of options I can think of.
I have tried both.
I don't know to what extent a programmer can help?? as I wouldn't have a clue as to what sort of software could be developed for a Korg.

Yamaha have at least 3 programs that could be used for Yammie styles.
Jorgen's Midi 2 Style.
Something like a 40 bar?? midifile has to be created, then the program chops it up into variations fills etc & saves it as a psr style.
Micheal Bedersoms ( Stylemaker Software ) is a bit more automated.
He's created some templates to load into BIAB. Again something like 40 bars is generated, saved into StyleMaker Program & then saved as PSR style once casms ( settings) have been set.
Jos's OMB software. Again a midifile is created in BIAB. Loaded into OMB. Then one chooses which bars get used in each of the variations fills etc.
Each part is done individually.
The main reason Yamaha requires external software , is that it doesn't have onboard facilities for importing a midifile & creating a style from it.

I've tried a couple of options.

Option 1. is creating a seperate midifile for each of the parts.

ie a midifile for variation 1 & include a couple of fills to choose from.
another one for var2 , 3 & 4.

Intro's & Endings could be done as 1 midifile or 3 sets.

As your probably aware, BIAB has a very basic 2 bar ending.
Intro's can be generated via BIAB, it will come up with a chord progression, some work some don't.
If one wants to use the BIAB generated intro's, we'd have to create the 3 sets.

If one just wanted to create an intro similar to Intro 2 ie no chord progression, the it might be possible to just have it as part of the variations files.

The other option I tried was just a single long midifile ( via a template) except that this way I only ended up with 1 ending.

No matter which way we do it, the midifile is going to require cutting up.
The suitable parts can be chopped up in a sequencer & saved as individual midifiles , ready to be imported into the korg style creation section.

Other option is to import a midifile ( upt to 32 bars long) into one of the korg style parts ( ie a variation) & then use the cut & copy functions in the style edit section to copy bars to the other style parts.
Sounds complicated, but it's not one you get the hang of it.
As I said I've tried both methods.

If there's an automated way of maybe doing it, fantastic, if not I'll see if I can put together a bit of a tutorial.

Just need to know which way seems the easiest way to go.


[quote="Rob Sherratt"]

Rikki is leading the way on defining the process. We have offers from several programmers who will then automate as much as is possible. If we could design, test and organise the development of styles and our style libraries on a PC and download these onto the Pa2x or Pa800 I think it would be the panacea we are all looking for. But Korg seem to be unresponsive in helping in this direction, so it looks like it's down to us users to sort it all out.

[keyboard]

Rikki, Rob, Mick, and many others...

Users pick a style and 99.9 % of the time , they are trying to reproduce a cover song. Every User probably has a midi collection or they can google one in minutes. What I would like to see is a method, to produce a style from a midi. Preferably with the keyboard.....If a midi Sequencer is required, I am sure that there are some reasonable ones around that can do the work. If not free ones.

Roland has a "midi to style " function on board but I do not know how efficient or how easy it is to do......The last korg I had was the i30 and creating styles was not important to me when I had the board so I cannot comment on the PA series. But I think that Rikki here has the ins and outs on creating styles .. Maybe instead of developing new software , do you think that with a tutorial including a midi file, could a teaching aide be developed , to create a style from a midi, using the keyboard ?

This might be the best way to go...There is enough talent here that the complexity of the manual could be explained better by examples. The tutorial DVD's is an excellent example of explaining the same thing that is in the manual but the only difference is, I can understand the DVD better then the manual. Perhaps with some thought and all the educated Users here, there can be a Tutorial do do this.

Just putting more food on the table.....I am excited about this whole project. This will make me commit to a PA2X PRO ,with no hesitation. The notion of being able to creat your own style is exciting to me..

Ron

[rikkisbears]

Hi Ron,
creating a style from a midifile ( one that has no chord progressions, except for intro & ending parts as can be created with BIAB files , even PSR files if the .sty extension is changed to .mid ) is not all that difficult with the Korg.
It's really a case of getting your head around the NTT settings ( in a psr it's the casm settings) & working out how some of the onboard editing functions work.

A midifile as in a song based file, can't really be done. One could use the Intro's & Ending, but the korg hasn't got the facility to automatically transpose the chord changes in a song to a single chord type, as can be done in software like OMB or EMC.
Having said that, it may be possible to put the song style thru OMB first to get rid of chord changes on variations & fills, then basically create the style as a psr style first, & save each of the style parts as individual midifiles that get imported into the korg. Then continue as I mentioned in my earlier post.. I have done that before with omb, but with a psr style.

Personally I haven't had all that much success with song based midifiles, maybe my choice of songs is bad. I did try doing some, one that springs to mind, for my PSR' was based on the Godfather theme. Intro/Ending worked beautifully but I couldn't find enough rythmic instruments in the midifile to get a good rythm going ( it was very orchestral file) so in the end I mixed & matched some style tracks & just used the Intro & Ending.

There are so many options available for style creation, you don't have to be able to record from scratch. I certainly can't.
Just a case of trying to learn the onboard editing functions & how the style settings work.
One reason I'm pretty excited about Real Band software.
The option of loading in a 4 bar midifile ( as in a psr style part saved as .mid) & possibly replacing the drum track or bass track with a BIAB track. Basically as simple as loading the BIAB style into Real Band & being able to generate a single BIAB track. All 5 tracks don't have to be generated they can be done individually.
Hopefully they get the "saving" bug fixed soon. It's such a dissapointment that it was released with such a major flaw.

At the moment I'm trying to see if I can come up with a template style for the korg, to try & make it a bit easier to import a .mid file & not to have to know all the settings required. Not sure if it will work though.

[quote="keyboard"]

[miden]

Rikki, in my view, the best way to set this up is to create the parts on the PC sequencer, and then import from the thumb drive/hdd direct into style record.
So....

Style SMF1 Variation 1 has all tracks 9 through 16 as a midi file of say, 8 bars length.

Style SMF 2 Variation 2 again with all the tracks, but as a 16 bar pattern instead.

Style SMF 3 Variation 3 etc etc, and I think you can see how this goes on.

Each of these is a seperate midi file with a seperate name.

Once saved to your thumb drive its a very easy and quick process to drop them into the style tracks via the import.

Now I am the first to agree the stylemaking on the Korg is arguably the best on any of the arrangers, but it IS a bit awkward.

One thing to NOT lose sight of here is that a LOT of song specific styles only need perhaps 2 variations, probably a fill and an ending. In some cases, apart from a quirky intro, you could even use an existing factory style to complete the song!!

Have a good listen to songs, they don't vary a great deal across the song apart from obviously verses and choruses and even then sometimes, the change is quite subtle, certainly not enough to justify 4 variations 3 intros and 3 endings, oh and three fills???

For mine, preparing the MIDI data on the PC is the way to go, fine tune on the PA.

Dennis

[miden]

As for a template, that would be pretty easy.

Just set up a blank midi file with channels preset 9 through 16, with the initial patch for each track/channel and a default volume, make the length of each track 32 bars.

That can then be the basic formwork around which people can record styles on a PC. Remember all they have to record is chord patterns in C Cmin Cmaj7. Or even cut and paste a chord pattern from an existing song, although that would require some knowledge of chord structure to make the correct transpositions.

But cutting and pasting bass and drum patterns would be pretty straighforward

All they have to do is then save the fisrt one they do . Re-load the template again for variation 2, record that, re-load etc etc?

What do you think?

I could do one this afternoon if you like.

Dennis