Letter to Korg from the usergroup: 3rd party software

[iaoranaemaeva]

The internal documentation is in the form of source code header files that Korg defintely don't want to release. To translate this into a user document takes a lot of work. The Pa1x user document that was released in the past under NDA is out of date. There are only a few people with the right skills to do the work to produce the update. And they are very busy with OS2 right now.

This looks perfectly logical. But I can't believe professional people at Korg are working with source code header files as specifications

Well, let's forget it: we'll do without

[Rob Sherratt]

But does the co-operation that you mention include 3rd parties like Mick? Otherwise what would be the use ?

Mick Barry and I were the joint editors of the Arranger Secrets DVD's (featuring Chris Whitehead). We are friends and Mick has just been to stay at my Villa last weekend.

Korg were extremely co-operative with both of us. They allowed use of teir Logos, their name and their web site. They helped us when they could with questions. While making the videos we found various "features" that we could not explain. Korg helped us with these and provided a "fast track" contact point with the company (subject to an NDA).

We are now producing a fourth DVD in the series and again Korg have been very co-operative.

However even though we have an "inside track" as a result of working on the DVD's, we can not abuse the privilege. We have both asked about the release of file definition information for the Pa800 file format, so that Mick can more quickly develop his "freeware" software.

We have been unofficially advised that users must complain to their dealer about the problem if Korg is to be persuaded to commit resources to solving the problem - probably by releasing a new API to developers. It will cost significant money for Korg to produce the API. Equivalent to the profits from several hundred Pa2x keyboards.

The evidence from the forum is that users are unwilling to write letters of complaint to their dealers. I have seen no letters or replies from dealers published here. I even wrote a template letter for users to send in the past.

So I guess nothing will happen.

Best regards,
Rob

[BiHSound]

Hello dear friends

I follow this section of the forum frequently and read your posts carefully. I find some things a bit weird and funny...for example, writing a letter of complaint to my dealer so that KORG would do something I want :shock:. First of all, my dealer does not care at all about KORG's business. If I gave the dealer the letter, I would be laughed at and the second I leave the store my letter would find a new home in the garbage bin. ISN'T IT ENOUGH THAT WE COMPLAIN HERE ON THE FORUM...I understand that this is not the official KORG forum, but IT SHOULD BE...Who ever are the nice guys running this forum they are doing a major part of KORG's job. And yes, the guys from KORG should read these posts and take them seriously...so why is that unnecessary "dealer" step needed :shock:?

Also, you were collecting serial numbers of machines to prove how many users follow this forum. Why? What ever members visit this section of the forum they visit it because they own either a Korg Pa2XPro - Pa800 - Pa500 or more than one, as I do. I do not think that Casio owners are asking for help with PA800. It is very obvious that this forum is the most popular KORG forum and it should be a part of KORG...a KORG representative should visit it frequently to gain knowledge of the requests...after all, they are selling these machines to us and not to Martians. That is all I wanted to say.

[BiHSound]

One more thing

Would it be possible to have two more stickies at the top of the forum, one just for reporting OS bugs and one for new feature requests...strictly just for this, any comments in those two sections should be erased. I think it would make the forum more organized and would be easier for Tramannoni to read it, instead of heaving an open topic for every bug somebody finds.

[BasariStudios]

E zemo zemo kad bi nesto znale ovde budale al i to je stoka jebes ih.

[Rob Sherratt]

Hello BiHSound,

I understand what you say. But I am disappointed in what you say for the following reasons.

I tried to do the best thing for Pa keyboard owners such as myself because while making the training DVD's, these are some of the "unofficial" comments I received from friends who work or have worked at one time for Korg:

a) "KorgForums represent only a small minority of Pa keyboard users. Therefore the company does not commit much resource or priority to monitoring or replying to topics. The majority of Pa keyboards are sold to non-English speaking customers anyway."

To combat this, I suggested we create the list of Korg Pa keyboards we own, with serial numbers. This would prove how representative the forum is. Also I agreed behind the scenes that I would help Korg by doing as much testing as I could to try to recreate or confirm software defects reported on the forum, and then I would send a detailed report to Korg if I could confirm the faults. This has resulted in many problems receiving priority attention.

b) "Company policy on new requirements for Pa keyboards is set as a result of discussions and feedback from Korg Distributors and from sales figures. If users wish to influence company policy about any perceived product shortcomings then they must write to their retailer and persuade the retailer to forward the letter to a Korg Distributor."

Hence I suggested that users write these letters, if solving the .SET file load/ merge problem was important to them.

Best regards,
Rob

[motor30]

Hello BiHSound,

I understand what you say. But I am disappointed in what you say for the following reasons.

I tried to do the best thing for Pa keyboard owners such as myself because while making the training DVD's, these are some of the "unofficial" comments I received from friends who work or have worked at one time for Korg:

a) "KorgForums represent only a small minority of Pa keyboard users. Therefore the company does not commit much resource or priority to monitoring or replying to topics. The majority of Pa keyboards are sold to non-English speaking customers anyway."

To combat this, I suggested we create the list of Korg Pa keyboards we own, with serial numbers. This would prove how representative the forum is. Also I agreed behind the scenes that I would help Korg by doing as much testing as I could to try to recreate or confirm software defects reported on the forum, and then I would send a detailed report to Korg if I could confirm the faults. This has resulted in many problems receiving priority attention.

b) "Company policy on new requirements for Pa keyboards is set as a result of discussions and feedback from Korg Distributors and from sales figures. If users wish to influence company policy about any perceived product shortcomings then they must write to their retailer and persuade the retailer to forward the letter to a Korg Distributor."

Hence I suggested that users write these letters, if solving the .SET file load/ merge problem was important to them.

Best regards,
Rob

Rob: i think it is important as BiHSound says, one of the Korg representative visit this site as an obligation! ...the same as for example AVSforum does for Tv sets! and they make adjustment in their updates based on the complaints almost every few months...i am surprised that no korg techs visit this site... that's another shame...

thank you for pushing this forward

[BiHSound]

Rob I understand that KorgForums represents only a small minority of PA keyboard users, but it still is the ONLY GLOBAL Korg forum. I am a Canadian, but I was born in exYugoslavia and I am in contact with thousands of the PA users from the Balkan region (since I am also the admin of one of the Balkan KORG forums). I am speaking on behalf of these Balkan customers (and there are MANY of them) when I say that all of them also want the exact same thing you do from KORG ("KORG give us the necessary info to write our own 3rd party software")...The problem with these Balkan customers is that most of them don't speak English and there is no one to complain too. Most of them bought their PA instruments from another country, because it was either cheaper or it wasn't available in their area...so to whom can these customers complain in their native language? BasariStudios can confirm everything that I wrote since he is from the same region.

[Rob Sherratt]

Rob I understand that KorgForums represents only a small minority of PA keyboard users, but it still is the ONLY GLOBAL Korg forum. I am a Canadian, but I was born in exYugoslavia and I am in contact with thousands of the PA users from the Balkan region (since I am also the admin of one of the Balkan KORG forums). I am speaking on behalf of these Balkan customers (and there are MANY of them) when I say that all of them also want the exact same thing you do from KORG ("KORG give us the necessary info to write our own 3rd party software")...The problem with these Balkan customers is that most of them don't speak English and there is no one to complain too. Most of them bought their PA instruments from another country, because it was either cheaper or it wasn't available in their area...so to whom can these customers complain in their native language? BasariStudios can confirm everything that I wrote since he is from the same region.

Hi BiHSound,

It is fantastic news that you are in contact with Balkan customers. Please could you explain to them that there is a campaign on the English speaking forum to persuade Korg to publish the details of the Pa800 SET file format. Please ask each of them to let you know their name and Pa keyboard serial number, and could you add these to the list on this forum on behalf of the Balkan users?

If you can do this so that there would be thousands of users represented on this forum then we might stand a chance of Korg taking the request seriously.

Best regards,
Rob

[LightGreen]

Korg want to cooperate with us. The internal documentation is in the form of source code header files that Korg defintely don't want to release. To translate this into a user document takes a lot of work. The Pa1x user document that was released in the past under NDA is out of date. There are only a few people with the right skills to do the work to produce the update. And they are very busy with OS2 right now.

Well, this sounds even more like C and Linux to me. The developers must've been in a real haste programming something without file format specifications. A terrible but not uncommon practice in software production process. Higher management often makes poor time and resource estimates. This results in sacrifices like that one.
However, I'm pretty sure that:
a) they have a full software model of Korg PA 800/2X
b) they might have some software for style editing, but for internal use only
That's my guess.

[macboy]

BihSound: great post, but do not attack the messanger Rob. Rob did NOT say that he liked the hints he gave, but it is the truth.

We can all complain easily that Korg needs to read this. There is no one doubting that. But they are NOT reading it enough.

Rob knows what he talks about. His idea is great, but if no one writes letters to the dealers nothing will happen. Simple as that.

Whether you like it or not, it is the truth. Problem is: for people it is easy to complain on a forum, but when you ask them to send a letter not via internet, they suddenly all run away

Too much work ...

You say that there are a lot of Balkan users. It is true. I am one of them. But saying that majority of them don't speak English is a lie

Rob has a superb way of trying to PROVE that this user group consists of a majority of Korg PA users: everybody write down the number of the keyboard in the register thread. An ideal way to prove with HOW many people we are here.

If only 50 people reactie: what is 50 people on total of 15.000 machines produced ? Nothing !

If I was Korg, I would also do nothing for such a small group. So we first need to prove how big we are.

About your sticky remark: GREAT idea and I still do not understand why there are not two extra stickies: one for reporting BUGS and the other for reporting REQUIREMENTS

[Rob Sherratt]

However, I'm pretty sure that:
a) they have a full software model of Korg PA 800/2X
b) they might have some software for style editing, but for internal use only
That's my guess.

I hope I am saying nothing confidential here:

On a) Only Korg know the answer, I guess this will never be disclosed to anybody external.

On b) I understand that Factory styles are developed using both PC and MAC based sequencers (depending on which of several studios are doing the work). The styles are then imported using MIDI import functionality, and are then fine tuned for optimum patch, EFX etc on board the Pa. You and I can do everything the same way that Korg do it. But it is a lot of work and takes time to achieve good results.

Apparently, Korg are writing a tutorial guide on how to develop styles, and this will be made available to us shortly after OS2 is released.

Also, if users develop styles using Factory sounds and Factory drumkits there will be no problem sharing the styles and moving the styles to different user locations. It is only when styles are developed using User Sounds and samples that there can be a problem when sharing the stuff.

There has been a lot of discussion about possible ways to automate style production. I still think that Band in a Box gives a good starting point, but it is not a complete answer.

Best regards,
Rob

[macboy]

Rob: making styles was never a problem. It just is a very difficult task. I do not believe that any tutorial can help.

Or you have that in you, or you do not have that within you.

It is like making music itself. Some are good, some are bad, some are ok etc...

If people cannot make styles now, they will not be able to do it after the tutorial I think.

Do you agree there ?

He who has the time and patience can easily find out how it works without any book or tutorial. The method itself is deadly simple. Just click on record style, create new style, choose your sounds and off you go

Making it to sound like the factory styles requires patience but above all it requires talent.

You can give a 15-year old boy the most expensive tutorial how to play Bach, but if he has no talent, it will not work

I do realise of course that some PARTS of the total process can be clarified. A good tutorial therefore is VERY usefull. I hope people don't understand me wrong.

I do like to see a good tutorial. My main point however is that people should not expect to make superb styles if they didn't do it already.

Just to make sure: I do NOT have that talent hahaha

PS About your factory style remark: changing SET's when using factory stuff is not a problem: very well said. Some people do not realise this.

[BiHSound]

Hi Rob

I left a message on a few other KORG forums explaining the situation...we will see how people will respond...any Serial No information I get I will post it on here. Then maybe you can take all of that info and send it to your local distributor. Thanks

[BasariStudios]

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