Korg can update ROM samples in PA800/2X

[LightGreen]

I've just run into a problem with my Korg PA800 keyboard and decided to re-format it and reset the unit to the initial state.
In order to do so, I checked the korgpa.com website and found the following two files:

Pa800_format.zip (0,8MB)
Pa800_os_res_v160.zip (113MB)

At first, I thought that 113 MB was a typo, and should've been 13 MB, because OS 1.60 + Resources = 5.5 + 7 MB = 12.5 MB.

But the file was actually 113 MB. The idea struck me that the additional 100 MBytes are nothing but ROM sample data.

So, if Korg can actually update sample data (and this is obvious in case they're using Flash ROM), we may expect new samples in OS 2.0.
Otherwise, how can one explain the size of the file (113MB)?
Let's just wait for the OS 2.0 release and look at the file size. If it is large enough, there may be new samples in it.

[Roland07]

Hi there,
I'm wondering, which is size of samples (if factory samples are stored in ROM) inside of PA2X Pro for current OS?
Why Korg don't tell us the size? many keyboards have it in specifications, this thing...


Best regards,
Roland07

[Rob Sherratt]

Hello LightGreen,

The best guide to follow (approved by Korg) on resetting your Pa800 or Pa2x is this one:

http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=38399

The reason the Pa800_os_res_v160.zip file is 113MB in size is because it writes to almost every location in the SSD FLASH memory to ensure that things like Sounds, Programs, Global etc are exactly as they should be.

It does NOT reprogram the ROM chips (Read Only Memory) that contains the factory Samples. Inside my Pa2x, there are 8 chips labelled MX23L12811TC-10. These are eight 128 Mbit Mask Programmed ROM chips made by Macronix and you can download the datasheet from lots of web sites if you do a Google search for it. (These chips are manufactured by Macronix with the contents defined using a photographic mask in accordance with a one-off specification that Korg provide). They contain the factory Samples (ie 128 Mbytes in total). They are soldered in. They are not electrically reprogrammable.

So the ONLY way to change the factory Samples is to desolder these 8 surface mount IC's and replace them with 8 replacement chips containing other samples prepared by Korg. In practice you have to buy a new keyboard!

So, even OS2 will not replace the factory ROM samples. Instead, OS2 will introduce new software algorithms called DNC that make fuller and better use of the samples that are there in your ROM already.

I apologise to everyone else for repeating this information again

Best regards,
Rob

[LightGreen]

The reason the Pa800_os_res_v160.zip file is 113MB in size is because it writes to almost every location in the SSD FLASH memory to ensure that things like Sounds, Programs, Global etc are exactly as they should be.

Rob, thanks for the explanation.
However, I've downloaded this 113MB file and got a completely different sound. Instruments are much brighter, crisper and expressive. Styles got better, too. The bass sounds are now so dense and loud, my keyboard stand vibrates. Drums are different, too.
Previously, I updated only OS and Resources, 12.5 MB in total. The change was not so dramatic.
Maybe it is just LP filter and other algorithms being improved, or sound programs being thoroughly remastered, but the resulting SOUND IS different. And I like it very much.
By the way, I doubt that the exact location, etc. can inflate file size up to 10x times. Whatever improvements are included in this large file, but it is a very cool update and I guess some other Korg owners who already updated to OS 1.60 with small files in March (as I did) could be surprised to find fresh content in this 113 MB package.
Just do not forget to BACKUP your user data!
Good luck guys!
Many thanks to Korg for the excellent job!

[Rob Sherratt]

Good to hear about the improvement it made!

[looo]

Thorough examination of "Korg PA800 USER's manual OS ver 1.51" may let us to think that PA800 sample ROM is electrically reprogrammable in theory as it's actually the part of SSD.

Check yourself:
page 319: Technical specifications->other features->Internal SSD Flash memory -"..256 MB for OS, PCM and all resources (20MB reserved to the SSD-User area";

page 233: Media edit mode->Storage devices and internal memory->About the SSD. Here one can learn that System area (SSD-S) cointains "Operating System and musical resources(Styles, Pads, Sounds, Perfomances, STSs, Multisamples and Global settings)."

and the next paragraph on the same page brings us info that after turing the instrument on, all data contained in SSD-S are transferred into RAM memory.

On the other hand i dont expect any manufacturer to update instrument's sample ROM after that instrument began being produced serially.

[Rob Sherratt]

Hello Looo,

I know the manual is confusing in places, and I can understand how that section led you to draw the wrong conclusion.

The internal SSD referred to in that part of the user manual is a single 2 Gbit NAND Serial Flash device. It is divided by the Korg OS into a system partition and a user partition. It is made by Samsung semiconductor and has part number K9F2G08U0M. The system partition stores user samples when the power is switched off. When the system powers up and does a PCM autoload, the user samples are copied from SSD to RAM.

The SSD is not able play back samples in real time. It can burst data at rates up to 200 Mbytes per sec, a bit like a disk drive because the bits are clocked in and out of the memory a sector at a time. But each sector can not be directly addressed to retrieve sound samples when they have to be played back in real time. The "random read access time" is 25 uS.

For playing back samples, a designer has to use memory whose access time is about 10 nS (ie 2500 times faster than the SSD), and which can be directly addressed. Only very fast RAM or mask programmed ROM can do this. And even the fastest possible RAM is sometimes not fast enough as we learned on the forum - because some of the 64k RAM chips in some Pa800 keyboards have had to be replaced. They were "out of tolerance" causing the "disappearing RAM" problem.

I don't think Korg or any other keyboard manufacturer wants to implement the Factory Samples so they can never be updated. It's just a current semiconductor technology limitation that forces it to be this way.

So, the factory Samples are stored in 128 Mbytes ROM. They are instantly available. There is no load time while they are transferred from SSD to RAM. But they can not be updated.

If you want to "update" the factory samples then you have to do it using User Samples that are held in SSD when the power is off and which have to be copied to RAM before they can be used. Loading 128 Mbytes of user samples takes about a minute, so there is a down side!

The above answers are based on private information Korg sent me which is not contained in the user manuals. My thanks to Korg.

Best regards,
Rob

[galettouille]

Hello Rob!
Your explanations are very technical (is it the good word?), but if the PA1x is made on the same technologie, how korg added some samples in it (snare drum) in the ressources given with OS (I don't remember which OS it was)?

[Lee]

Rob,
Thanks for all the details.
Yep...that all makes sense...
THAT"S WHY THE FACTORY SAMPLES MUST BE 'SUPERB'.....WITH VIRTUALLY NO PROBLEMS as they can not be updated...
Unfortunately Korg DID NOT get it done right...(in some cases only) so now we have quite a few sounds that have problems when played (especially with slower music when you will be holding notes longer).

So I would appreciate it if Korg would provide fixed samples to be loaded at boot time from user SSD sample area and a new MR to use those samples instead of the ones with problems.

After all it's really all about the sound (as Kurzweil says, and delivers on) .

One can hope???

Lee

[musicrazy]

I certainly respect the wisdom of Rob, but i desagree with him.
Korg CAN update the rom sounds. like someone wrote here, this samples are contained in the resources. You've seen that in the pa1xpro os3.0 when korg added the new piano sound. That'a how they corrected some bad multisamples in the first version of the pa800.
Another prove - Format the keyboard and install ONLY the file with the OS. Then install the normal resources. Now you have a dumb keyboard. That's because the samples are not loaded in the memory. When they update samples with a new resources file they put only those new samples in the file. That's how you explain the diference in size of the OS/RESOURCES file. All the samples are there.

[BasariStudios]

When they update samples with a new resources file they put only those new samples in the file. All the samples are there.

And yet it is something they can ONLY do, not US, so whats the difference to US...
NADA!

WOW! 2400!!!

[karmathanever]

I've downloaded this 113MB file and got a completely different sound. Instruments are much brighter, crisper and expressive. Styles got better, too. The bass sounds are now so dense and loud, my keyboard stand vibrates. Drums are different, too.
Previously, I updated only OS and Resources, 12.5 MB in total. The change was not so dramatic.

I am intrigued ....
Would this just be (perhaps) because all settings are reset (EQ etc) but then a re-install of OS and Resources should do that....

Pete

[looo]

[quote="Rob Sherratt"]Hello Rob,

thanks for sharing interesting additional info with us but i dare to go on asking as not everything is clear to me after yor explanation.
First, if you say that SSD-S contains user samples only while sample RAM capacity available to user is just 64 MB does it mean that more than 64 MB user samples can be stored at the same time within SSD-S? And second, "empty" (without any user samples) PA800 startup time is about 1 min - time that you've indicated as that needed to transfer about 128 MB from SSD to RAM. So what's going on during this time?

Several monthes ago i tried to calculate myself PA800 sample ROM size proceeding from confusing manual info and some statisatical fuctions availalbe in "media" mode(media->erase, go to root folder "All", functions "objects info", "device info") . I supposed that 256 MB of SSD are divided into several zones: 64MB user RAM image+20 MB SSD-U+ PA OS+musical resources+user data(other than user samples)+sample ROM.
But i presupposed that no more than 64 MB (sample RAM capacity) of user samples can be simultaneously stored in SSD!
If memory serves me, i got the figure about 134 MB as the possible upper limit of SSD volume available for sample ROM and that looked pretty credible.
I supposed also that on power on PA800 loads Sample ROM (actually part of SSD used as sample ROM) into faster RAM and only then PA gets ready to work. On the contrary, PA500 has real sample ROM and its startup time is much lower.

I dont intend to

[Rob Sherratt]

I certainly respect the wisdom of Rob, but i desagree with him.
Korg CAN update the rom sounds. like someone wrote here, this samples are contained in the resources. You've seen that in the pa1xpro os3.0 when korg added the new piano sound. That'a how they corrected some bad multisamples in the first version of the pa800.
Another prove - Format the keyboard and install ONLY the file with the OS. Then install the normal resources. Now you have a dumb keyboard. That's because the samples are not loaded in the memory. When they update samples with a new resources file they put only those new samples in the file. That's how you explain the diference in size of the OS/RESOURCES file. All the samples are there.

I used to have a Pa1x and I do know how sounds are constructed and layered as does John Reuben, Alex and Nedim and many others. The "new" Piano Sound downloadable from Korg's web site for use with OS3.x on the Pa1x used 16 Mbytes of User Sample Ram. Alex and John Reuben also sampled a Stenway for the Pa1x which took another 16 Mbytes of User Sample Ram. John Reuben then released a number of .SET files containing both sets of samples and a number of Sounds designed to make best use of the samples. I used all these and with PCM autoload configured, it only added about a minute to the overall start-up time of the Pa1x while the samples were loaded from disk into user RAM.

RAM-based user samples can of course be used on the Pa2x and Pa800, so long as you don't mind the incresed start-up time while they transfer from USB or HD into RAM.

ROM means "Read Only". It is not physically possible to change the contents of a ROM after it has been manufactured. You can disagree with me about this all you like. You can choose to misunderstand how the Pa1x new piano user samples were delivered if you like. It will not change the physical characteristics of the Macronix ROM chips containing the Factory Samples that are inside your Pa800 or Pa2x.

[galettouille]

Hi Rob. I insist because I want to understand!
I know that the new Korg piano was loaded in RAM on boot. But I'm absolutely sure that the snare drum sample added in OS x.xx was not loaded in RAM. How can it be?
Best
Alex