Creating a new multi-layer Steinway Piano for Pa2x/Pa800

Rob Sherratt · Post by **Rob Sherratt** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:16 pm

mrkorg wrote:Rob,

So you have your PA2X back, how is it?

Hi Steven,

Hope you are keeping well and you have not been affected by the fires in Australia.

I received my Pa2x back on Monday last week. The two huge panel boards containing all the LEDs and buttons have been replaced with new ones. The Pa2x was returned with OS2.01 loaded and it's the first time I've had aa chance to try the production release. I'm delighted with the new OS features, my favorites being the DNC legato sound effects, and the ability to import and export styles as a single MIDI file with markers.

The keyboard has been working flawlessly and I've been giving the sampling section a real thrashing just lately as you know from thiis thread. The only problem I came across was an inability to load .aif sample files created by WavePad, but in any case this is a stupid way to do it. For the sake of $100, Awave Studio complete automates the operation of building the multisamples in the required Korg format, and saves days of work.

Korg took trouble to test my keyboard very thoroughly. They replaced the two circuit boards that I believe gave rise to the lock up problems (even though Korg could not confirm that was the root cause). And OS2 is great. These things have restored my faith in the product and as you can see I have my enthusiasm to do things with it again

Best regards,
Rob

Rob Sherratt · Post by **Rob Sherratt** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:43 pm

Just to let everyone know that I heard back from my friend in Korg about the .aif files generated by WavePad.

There does seem to be a file / data format problem where some of the necessary information is not provided by Wavepad such as the note information and velocity mapping. That seems to be why the Pa2x rejects the files.

However if you import the WavePad .aif files into Awave Studio and fill in the missing information (which can be done in batch mode on all the files in one go), then the resulting .aif files can import into the Pa2x as expected.

If Korg engineers provide me with specific details on what needs to be fixed in WavePad, then I wil contact the author of that program.

Best regards,
Rob

abo59 · Post by **abo59** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:12 pm

Hi Rob, quite an undertaking here, very impressive.

Re: audio editor, GoldWave generates .aif files that is readily accepted by the Pa2x. It's available as a trial download, so you might want to check it out.

Rob Sherratt · Post by **Rob Sherratt** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:47 pm

Latest update:

Although I got quite a good Steinway Piano on my first attempt, I realised that the stereo samples were not playing in stereo on the Pa2x. I have had to go back to Awave Studio to split the stereo samples into two mono sets, R and L. Then I had to load the two half sets into adjacent OSCs, one panned full L and thge other panned full R. That seems to have fixed it, it's how the Korg GrandPianoRx was done.

My first attempt at splitting into two sets of mono multisamples was a bit of a failure with some nasty chorussing on some notes. Then I realised it was because because the key mapping for the two sets of multisamples was not identical. I've had to perform the key mapping manually to make sure the two R and L multisamples use the same sample pairs for each key. Seems to be working now.

Regards,
Rob

Lee · Post by **Lee** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:08 pm

Rob,
WOW...great progress...So far...How much beter do you think it will be than the factory Grand Piano RX? (of course all pianos are diffeent, but you know what I mean by better)

This is very exciting!

Thanks,
Lee

Rob Sherratt · Post by **Rob Sherratt** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:53 pm

Hi Lee,

Well, I like it better already and it's only got one set of stereo saamples in so far. The upper samples and the bottom strings are really sweet sounding. However the mid range samples sound dull and not so good to me, and I can't work out why this has happened. I might try redoing the sample edits for the midrange samples, without applying the noise filter in case that is the reason the mid range is suffering.

Shame you are not here to give a hand and quadruple the brain power in solving the various issues that keep popping up. I say quadruple because it feels like only quarter of my brain is functioning right now - editing 90 samples by hand (at least 3 times now) does that to you

Best regards,
Rob

a.schemkes · Post by **a.schemkes** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:58 pm

Rob Sherratt wrote:
mrkorg wrote:Rob,

So you have your PA2X back, how is it?
And OS2 is great. These things have restored my faith in the product and as you can see I have my enthusiasm to do things with it again

Best regards,
Rob

Glad to see you happy again with the PA2Xpro. (and so should KORG be)
Your enthusiasm is the thing that convinced me in the first place to buy the PA2xPro.

So lot's of succes with the all new 3 way Multi switching stereo Grand Piano sample. I'm looking forward to hear the first impressions.

Grt Antoine...

Lee · Post by **Lee** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:29 am

Rob,
Great news...I bet when it's done you will be very pleased....So far you only have 1 part of the triple strike in? and it's sounds good already...that's progress!

Iteresting that it's the mid area that's not as good...someone on the other forum said the G-70 was a little flat and dlifeless in the middle. Maybe it's a quencedence? I'l sure you'l figute out the difference. How did the raw samples sound after conversion and before any processing?

I'd love to be there to help in any small way I could...sometimes just having someone to bang ideas off of even helps, in my experience. Even if you can't figure it out together...you can have a nice drink and laugh about it!

I remember some of the toughest bugs I worked on at IBM, when I serviced all the old data processing equipment...if I was stumped, and another service man came over to help (as we often did for each other) just another idea or even questions about the problem would sometimes spur ..a OH sure...that's what's going on! And bingo...problem solved.

Take a break...then go fix that thing!

Meanwhile I bumbling along on this piano project I started....

Lee

mrkorg · Post by **mrkorg** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:26 am

Hi Rob,

Thank God the fires are thousands of miles away in Victoria, i'm in NSW. It really is an enormous disaster however the worst part is that the fires were deliberately lit except for a few. What has resulted, is the death of more than 180 people, destruction of more than 750 homes and wiping toowns and villages of the map to name a few. I'm surprised it made the news in Greece.

Back to topic, it's great that you have your PA2X back and hopefuly the problems were all fixed. I'm looking forward to hear the steinway sample.

Rob Sherratt · Post by **Rob Sherratt** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:53 am

mrkorg wrote:Hi Rob,

Thank God the fires are thousands of miles away in Victoria, i'm in NSW. It really is an enormous disaster however the worst part is that the fires were deliberately lit except for a few. What has resulted, is the death of more than 180 people, destruction of more than 750 homes and wiping toowns and villages of the map to name a few. I'm surprised it made the news in Greece.

Back to topic, it's great that you have your PA2X back and hopefuly the problems were all fixed. I'm looking forward to hear the steinway sample.

Hi Steven,

I sent you private mail with the MP3 attached. Let me know?

I can't understand why people/terrorists wanted to destroy so many lives and so many homes by fire. What was their motive? Yes it made all the headlines in Greece, and my heart goes out to the families who lost loved ones. I'm glad it was a long way from your own home. Of course Greece has its own share of arsonists and terrorists, they use any excuse to kill policemen and government officials. In Greece they are anarchists. The police seem to be doing a good job tracking them down.

Best regards,
Rob

nikola81 · Post by **nikola81** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:02 am

I got your demo and i can say that it sound's very good to me. I'm not too into piano but i can hear that it stand's out of arrangement pretty good and the quality of sound and velocity is great. Really good job. And for the details try to make some demo just with piano to hear smaller parts of the sound.

macboy · Post by **macboy** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:04 pm

A real piano has some interesting characteristics due to several effects. At the beginning of a note, a variety of transients are mixed, some of which are propagated via the strings, and others via the structure of the instrument. The details of the structure-born transients in a grand piano were studied by removing the strings for a note in the mid range and letting the hammer strike a dummy mass. It was found that structure-born transients occur at the bridge both before and after that the first transversal wave on the string has arrived (“'precursors” and “postcursors” respectively). The precursors are affected by the way the key is depressed, and may thus be connected with the pianist's "touch." As well known, the piano tone contains a characteristic attack component, which is mixed with the sound of the string vibrations. This acoustic signature of the piano has caused problems when synthesising piano tones by physical modeling. After doing so, we may understand clearer than before why the commercial synthesiser manufacturers still rely on the sampling technique for producing realistic piano sounds.

I found this interesting on the internet. However, it does not answer why the mid range sounds dull, since it has been sampled and not been modelled. I will listen to the MP3 when I am at home.

mrkorg · Post by **mrkorg** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:49 pm

Rob,

Thanks for the attached MP3. What can i say it is marvelous. Well done, I really loved it. One of the best i've heard. I like it's smoothness and attack.

Post by **Sharp** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:58 pm

macboy wrote:A real piano has some interesting characteristics due to several effects. At the beginning of a note, a variety of transients are mixed, some of which are propagated via the strings, and others via the structure of the instrument. The details of the structure-born transients in a grand piano were studied by removing the strings for a note in the mid range and letting the hammer strike a dummy mass. It was found that structure-born transients occur at the bridge both before and after that the first transversal wave on the string has arrived (“'precursors” and “postcursors” respectively). The precursors are affected by the way the key is depressed, and may thus be connected with the pianist's "touch." As well known, the piano tone contains a characteristic attack component, which is mixed with the sound of the string vibrations. This acoustic signature of the piano has caused problems when synthesising piano tones by physical modeling. After doing so, we may understand clearer than before why the commercial synthesiser manufacturers still rely on the sampling technique for producing realistic piano sounds.

I found this interesting on the internet. However, it does not answer why the mid range sounds dull, since it has been sampled and not been modelled. I will listen to the MP3 when I am at home.

I would find it fair hard to swallow that myself. It borders on someone just rambling on trying to make things sound complicated in order to fool people into thinking that they are intelligent. He's also wrong on a few things, namely Modelling. The Piano has been Modelled to perfection long long ago and every single part of the piano can be simulated. Even the dimensions of the body. There is no secret.

Sampling is simply used as a popular means to reproduce the sounds because it doesn't require a licence from those who have modelled the piano, or the research into modelling your own on top of the hardware you would have to include into the instrument to generate the sounds.

So for the most part is about the $$$, nothing else.

Regards.
Sharp.

mrkorg · Post by **mrkorg** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:05 pm

can't understand why people/terrorists wanted to destroy so many lives and so many homes by fire. What was their motive?

Who knows what the motives are, i heard on the news that one of the accused who is currently in custody is a firefighter and was bored so he set the bush on fire.

I'm just afraid that justice won't be served due to the shocking legal system we have here which almost always sees criminals let off on the grounds of "insanity" or some appaling excuse.

Greece has it's fair share as well.