M50 Organs

Aussie-Andy · Post by **Aussie-Andy** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:47 pm

This one's got me curious.

How can you create any B3 organ sound you want on a workstation. In terms of versatility I would say the Roland SRJV waves were the most versatile because they individually sampled the 2nd, 3rd percussion, all drawbars, many with chorus and leslie settings as well as a few overdriven settings. Korg does not have this on their workstations. The problem with the Roland samples was that they weren't overly bright compared with Korg which have a little more bite and grit to their sound. The problem with Korg samples is they do not sample all drawbars individually, only a hand full of settings. Which make them no where near as versatile. That being said, I still prefer the overall character of Korg's organs over Roland, with Yamaha not even worth a rating, (sorry Yamaha fans).

Correct me if I'm wrong on any point, but I've checked the individual waves of both Triton's and M-series. The biggest range seemed to be the Extreme with Triton factory sounds, the expansion set plus a few exclusive ones.

I just sold a Nord Electro 3 and to compare it to a workstation is like comparing quartz to diamond. It's laughable and anyone who has tried all that is out there knows there is no comparison. I'm sure going to miss that Nord B3 sound, absolutely brilliant, second to none. I would venture to say even better than what Hammond-Suzuki are producing.

kanthos · Post by **kanthos** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:52 pm

X-Trade wrote:although I don't get to play organ. my bandmates tell me that it sounds too 'dated'.

Fire your bandmates or something. Or at least point out that all the major retro keyboards are making big comebacks in modern music. Dream Theatre, for one, uses B3 fairly frequently.

BillW · Post by **BillW** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 1:34 pm

Aussie-Andy wrote:This one's got me curious.

How can you create any B3 organ sound you want on a workstation.

You can't. There is no comparison between a few samples of an organ in a rompler and a fully modeled Hammond clone. Sure it will fool the average listener, but anybody who has played a clone or the real thing would know the difference.

jpscoey · Post by **jpscoey** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 1:46 pm

Aussie-Andy wrote:.

"I just sold a Nord Electro 3 and to compare it to a workstation is like comparing quartz to diamond....

It's laughable and anyone who has tried all that is out there knows there is no comparison...

that Nord B3 sound, absolutely brilliant, second to none".

I'm in full agreement - the M50 ( and other workstations), are great at what they do.....

but you can't have everything - especially at the price the M50 sells for!

It has good organ simulations, but not the best available.

Horses for courses...

McHale · Post by **McHale** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 1:47 pm

Bill, I notice in your sig that you have a CX-3. How do you like it? I'm torn between it and the Hammond XK3C...

BillW · Post by **BillW** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:07 pm

McHale wrote:Bill, I notice in your sig that you have a CX-3. How do you like it? I'm torn between it and the Hammond XK3C...

I love it! I had access to a real C3 & Leslie growing up so nothing replaces that experience, but the CX3 is still my favorite clone. There's just something about the Leslie simulation in it that does it for me. It took me a while to settle on the Korg and I owned a lot of other stuff along the way:

Voce V3
Roland VK-7
Roland VK-8 (twice)
Roland VK-8M (twice, still have the 2nd one)

I've also tried B4 (I and II) and VB3. The B4's Leslie sim is among the worse! The VB3's Leslie sim is really well done, but there's something about the tone that I don't like. I played the original XK3 when it came out but the Leslie sim on that didn't sound right to me. I have heard it's improved in the XK-1 and XK3c but I haven't tried them. Of course, the Leslie sim is irrelevant if you plan to use a real Leslie. I'm just not willing to have the extra equipment hanging around. I'm all about portability!

Honestly, I don't think you can go wrong with any of the modern clones. Each of them has its strengths. You just have to decide what's important to you sound-wise and feature-wise and go with your best judgment.

Bill

kikedeolivos · Post by **kikedeolivos** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:31 pm

BillW wrote:
McHale wrote:Bill, I notice in your sig that you have a CX-3. How do you like it? I'm torn between it and the Hammond XK3C...
I love it! I had access to a real C3 & Leslie growing up so nothing replaces that experience, but the CX3 is still my favorite clone. There's just something about the Leslie simulation in it that does it for me. It took me a while to settle on the Korg and I owned a lot of other stuff along the way:

Voce V3
Roland VK-7
Roland VK-8 (twice)
Roland VK-8M (twice, still have the 2nd one)

I've also tried B4 (I and II) and VB3. The B4's Leslie sim is among the worse! The VB3's Leslie sim is really well done, but there's something about the tone that I don't like. I played the original XK3 when it came out but the Leslie sim on that didn't sound right to me. I have heard it's improved in the XK-1 and XK3c but I haven't tried them. Of course, the Leslie sim is irrelevant if you plan to use a real Leslie. I'm just not willing to have the extra equipment hanging around. I'm all about portability!

Honestly, I don't think you can go wrong with any of the modern clones. Each of them has its strengths. You just have to decide what's important to you sound-wise and feature-wise and go with your best judgment.

Bill

I agree 100%.: the B4II Leslie sim is a joke.

Korg has the CX-3 and BX-3 to sell so the will never put top notch organ samples on their workstations.

Hammond Suzuki has the digital versions XK-1 and XK3c, good tone but awful Leslie sim...why? They have to sell their Leslies. (new 122 and 3300)

Between the CX-3 and the XK-3c WITHOUT a Leslie, I would chose the CX-3; the tone is not "quite there", Chorus is NOT adjustable but the Leslie sim is second to none.(Korg's)

jerrythek · Post by **jerrythek** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:04 pm

The CX3 uses a completely different approach to organ recreation, modeling all the aspects of the tonewheels/drawbars, leakage, key click and so on.

no "rompler" will be the same as a "clonewheel" approach. Samples can't recreate the same level of realism and sonic interaction.

I just wanted to clear that up.

Not to say you can't make a lot of great organ sounds with a rompler - we are proud of what we've done in the past and continue to do.

I'll have to ask our experts to take a look at your dialog here. No promises of a time frame, OK?

Regards,

Jerry

kikedeolivos · Post by **kikedeolivos** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:22 pm

jerrythek wrote:The CX3 uses a completely different approach to organ recreation, modeling all the aspects of the tonewheels/drawbars, leakage, key click and so on.

no "rompler" will be the same as a "clonewheel" approach. Samples can't recreate the same level of realism and sonic interaction.

I just wanted to clear that up.

Not to say you can't make a lot of great organ sounds with a rompler - we are proud of what we've done in the past and continue to do.

I'll have to ask our experts to take a look at your dialog here. No promises of a time frame, OK?

Regards,

Jerry

Hi Jerry and thanks for chiming in.

I truly understand the modeling concept on the CX-3 but what about the sim? A friend of mine has an old Alesis QS6 (can't remember the exact model) and, via the sliders, he can add percussion to taste; however the Leslie sim on that board is awful.

What I don't understand is why so many electronica, hip hop, noises, ambient, etc. pads on Korg synths. Some, to some extent are fine. (I guess that Marketing tells you what's on demand) but there's a myriad of musicians around the globe that need some of those but , good bread and butter sounds and the organ is one of those.

I'm in the verge of buying my 4th Korg, debating between the X50 and the M50 and can't tell the improvement of one over the other regarding the Organ department. I understand the 1 insert FX vs 5 insert FX thing but, just picking one organ patch and firing up the Leslie effect, I can't hear a huge difference between the X50 and the M50.

Thanks again.

McHale · Post by **McHale** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:42 pm

kikedeolivos wrote:What I don't understand is why so many electronica, hip hop, noises, ambient, etc. pads on Korg synths. Some, to some extent are fine. (I guess that Marketing tells you what's on demand) but there's a myriad of musicians around the globe that need some of those but , good bread and butter sounds and the organ is one of those.

I'm in the verge of buying my 4th Korg, debating between the X50 and the M50 and can't tell the improvement of one over the other regarding the Organ department. I understand the 1 insert FX vs 5 insert FX thing but, just picking one organ patch and firing up the Leslie effect, I can't hear a huge difference between the X50 and the M50.

The presets may not be what you're looking for (you can't please everybody and often times the presets don't appeal to me either. But the synth has the capabilities to do MANY things outside of the presets. I'm very happy with the presets in the sense they show what can be done and it's up to us, the consumer, to customize them to our tastes.

Between the X50 and M50, the M50 wins hands down in the organ department. The X50's organs won't be much different than the Tritons with the exception that the Triton has more insert effects (thus more options you can use to tweak a sound). The M50's organs sounded the same to me until I started to really work with them. They are a lot better, by a LONGshot. I never thought I'd stop using my Triton for it's organs because I really liked them. The M50 has so many more possibilities that I don't use the Triton for any organs any more.

-Mc

kikedeolivos · Post by **kikedeolivos** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:09 pm

McHale wrote:
Between the X50 and M50, the M50 wins hands down in the organ department. The X50's organs won't be much different than the Tritons with the exception that the Triton has more insert effects (thus more options you can use to tweak a sound)...

-Mc

I understand what you are saying but 1 insert FX vs 5 insert FX does nothing -correct me if I'm wrong- to the Leslie sim. The Leslie sim is just ONE FX on either keyboard: just adding other insert effects (compressors, overdrive or whatever the M50 has) won't change the realness (is that a word?) of a good Leslie sim (CX-3) in slow and full throttle.

Funny thing, last week I saw a Toto's concert on DVD, I think when they played in Germany. Among the features in the DVD menu, each one of the musicians were explaining how they achieved certain riffs on their set. I went straight to the part when Greg Phillinganes shows his rig and explain his riffs / parts on Rossana. The organ on the Chorus, is a typical Korg organ sound -an Extreme- (as the OP pointed out) and David Paich in the original recording, uses a Hammond; an organ player could spot the difference blindfolded.

I guess that somebody would say, ie, that the audience won't notice but I will notice and that's what matters to me; I want to sit on a keyboard and get inspired by it, not spending hours and hours tweaking and tweaking "classic" sounds that should come ready from the factory.

Again, Korg= I love you guys; it's just that my financial situation changed radically and I don't have the luxury anymore on spending almost $1500 in a compulsive buy without having the chance to return (Argentina) the board if I didn't like it.

Peace

PS: and BTW, I love this thread.

Aussie-Andy · Post by **Aussie-Andy** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:08 am

I'll second that last comment, I also love this thread. There's nothing like a good clonewheel/organ sample debate.

I really like Korg's organ sounds. However, in the M3 and the M-50, there is just not enough of them. We're not talking about patches, but waves, the raw material you use to build custom patches.

Too much emphasis has been given recently to ep's and clavs, not enough on organs.

I hope Korg will look seriously into improving this. The user/consumer group has spoken. Less synths more organ.

No one's asking for a full modelled B3 in a workstation to rival a clonewheel. Just a better and fuller blend of bread and butter sounds, at the expense of useless novelty sounds no one uses except to amuse themselves and their friends for five minutes.

jpscoey · Post by **jpscoey** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:13 am

Aussie-Andy wrote:"No one's asking for a full modelled B3 in a workstation to rival a clonewheel.

Just a better and fuller blend of bread and butter sounds,

at the expense of useless novelty sounds no one uses except to amuse themselves and their friends for five minutes".

+ 1 - what are they there for?..... and has anyone ever used them in "real life"???

kikedeolivos · Post by **kikedeolivos** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 1:41 pm

Aussie-Andy wrote:
No one's asking for a full modelled B3 in a workstation to rival a clonewheel. Just a better and fuller blend of bread and butter sounds, at the expense of useless novelty sounds no one uses except to amuse themselves and their friends for five minutes.

+1

kikedeolivos · Post by **kikedeolivos** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:32 pm

BUMP: i don't want this thread to die.

I'm still disappointed on the M50 organ samples and specially, the Leslie sim.

I hope Korg is listening.