Needs input from M3 and PA2X users on which is better for me

melka_ashur · Post by **melka_ashur** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 7:21 am

Hi, I am looking for a keyboard which has high quality sounds, and can be taken into the studio and where wav files/mp3 can be exported from the keyboard as a final product ready to sing to and then burn. Also, I want a keyboard which can be upgraded and oriental/arabic/turkish sounds and styles added in. I was thinking that the two best keyboards korg makes which offers these are the m3 and the pa2x pro. Do you guys have any input on which is better? Which has higher quality sounds? Which is more suited for the studio? And maybe if you can offer some features which one keyboard has over the other more specifically? It would be GREATLY appreciated.

I was ALSO wondering about adding sounds onto either system. If their operating systems are such that the sets you can download are interchangeable between m3 and pa2x systems. Because I have read and seen that the sets being sold for the pa2x are compatible with pa800, but wasn't sure if the same is true of m3 and vice versa.

Michael

Rob Sherratt · Post by **Rob Sherratt** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 2:08 pm

Hi Michael,

You said ....

Also, I want a keyboard which can be upgraded and oriental/arabic/turkish sounds and styles added in.

Your choice comes down to the Pa500-Oriental or Turkish edition, or the Pa800 or Pa2x with something like EMO's turkish style pack added. The M3 has no style playing capability.

Best regards,
Rob

melka_ashur · Post by **melka_ashur** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 4:26 pm

Thank you very much for that peice of info. had no idea that the M3 doesn't play styles, I guess it is purely for making songs from scratch which I will be doing anyways, though the styles feature is nice to have. And i guess in addition to not being able to load styles, but one wouldnt be able to create styles either, which is handy to be able to save.
Do you have any input on the quality of sounds? I heard the pa800 has inferior quality to the pa2X, and i'm guessing the pa500 is also inferior in quality. But I want something which sounds realistic. i know all the keyboards have expensive orientlal sets for download, and that also affects how real each sound is, but wondering between the pa2x and m3, if there is anything that can be said comparing their sound quality/realism. And also just to make sure, the M3 runs on a seperate operating system from the pa2x and downloadable sets for one are not simply installed into the other, as one could between the pa2x and pa800, correct? Thank you very much.

BasariStudios · Post by **BasariStudios** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 5:12 pm

NONE!
Which is better for me? A Helicopter or an Airplane?
A Guy or a Girl? Its to different things with no comparisson.

karmathanever · Post by **karmathanever** » Sun Aug 09, 2009 1:11 am

Hi Michael

PA2X and PA800 are same in terms of sounds, however the PA2X has more sample memory for loading new user samples. If you are not particularly wanting styles, I would go for the M3 - the Karma facility with its "generated effects" will give you lots of drums, bass grooves (and more) from which you can build new songs. I am sorry but I am not too familiar with oriental/arabic/Turkish music. As Rob said "....Pa500-Oriental or Turkish edition, or the Pa800 or Pa2x with something like EMO's turkish style pack added..." may be a suitable choice for you.

Guess I haven't helped much

. Try posting you questions on the M3 forum (if you haven't already) and you may find some M3 owners with similar requirements and experiences.

Anyhow, good luck with it - let us know what you decide...

Cheers

Pete

Rob Sherratt · Post by **Rob Sherratt** » Sun Aug 09, 2009 1:14 am

Hi Michael,

I heard the pa800 has inferior quality to the pa2X, and i'm guessing the pa500 is also inferior in quality.

If you play the keyboards through the same high quality Pa and speakers you will hear no difference when playing factory sounds and styles.

The Pa2x has the greatest sample RAM capability at up to 256 Mbytes, the Pa800 is 64 Mbytes, the Pa500 has none. The main difference in "quality" is the ability to add user sounds to the Pa2x such as the new Irish Acts Grand MegaPiano which requires 160 Mbytes sample RAM. This sound is one of the highest quality sampled pianos you will ever hear. I am biassed, so ask someone like Lee about it!

Also the Pa2x comes as standard with an internal hard disk and a dual MP3 recorder, plus some additional hardware slider controls. These are not available on the Pa500, and the HD and dual MP3 are chargeable options on the Pa800 that would push the Pa800 price above that of the Pa2x.

As to comparing the Pa2x with the M3, as Nedim says you can't draw a straight comparison. The M3 is a design tool for a skilled studio musician or a keyboard player playing with other musicians. You can achieve commercial quality results so long as a lot of effort and skill is available. It takes more work and requires more skill from the musician than the Pa2x.

The Pa2x is arguably the best style-based accompaniment keyboard you can get. It can make a mediocre musician sound pretty good, though in the long term this can also be a handicap since reliance on auto-accompaniment can stunt your development as a musician. The Pa2x is designed for gigging and it gives acceptable results for one-man-band performances in pubs and clubs. The M3 does not have the style based facilities needed for one-man-band performances in pubs and clubs.

Which do I prefer? Both ...

Regards,
Rob

melka_ashur · Post by **melka_ashur** » Sun Aug 09, 2009 3:46 am

Thanks for all your input guys. I am actually sort of swaying toward the m3 now, just because it seems that preset styles are the main difference between the two systems, and really that's only good for messing around, since origional songs must and should be ORIGIONAL and from scratch, and that is mostly what I want the keyboard for. And the m3 is QUITE A BIT cheaper than the pa2x for some reason.
Do you guys know if the M3 has an mp3 recorder feature which can output a finalize song in mp3 or wav format? My cousin has having some problems with this, and said it couldn't but if so, that'd be surprising to me.
Aside from the ability of the pa2x to record mp3 another plus is that most of my friends who play oriental music have pa2x's already, with all the highest quality sounds/instruments and styles so it would be easy to download anything from them. Do you guys know where one might find more sounds/instruments for download online for free? Or are most in big expensive bundles such as the ones on EBAY?

BasariStudios · Post by **BasariStudios** » Sun Aug 09, 2009 4:32 am

No, the M3 doesnt have an MP3 recording feature, i think it does directly to
wave but i have never tested that since there is other better ways for doing
down an MP3 or a final song, i usually do everything in my studio. You are
saying that the presets are the main differences between the 2 systems but
i wouldnt agree on that, i have both machines and i know them both by heart.
As for sounds, for good sounds you have to pay, there is few third party
devellopers including me at www.basaristudios.com and sometimes you can
find some good free stuff on the net...deppending what you want.
Western stuff you can find anywhere but its hard to find good Oriental stuff for free.

melka_ashur · Post by **melka_ashur** » Sun Aug 09, 2009 6:26 am

Ohhh ok. So if it doesn't have mp3 as output, then thats a major plus point for the pa2x pro. Even though true, it can be done, and perhaps done better on comp. But I want that ability to finish a product ON the keyboard itself, and not depend on a computer or any other device. I mean of course, I can plug in a digital recorder and record from m3 headphones out and get an mp3, but again, it's an issue of pa2x seeming to have a lot more features.
As far as sets, I did see your product on ebay, and it's a wonderful product. I don't know much about which companies have the most realistic sounds, and I wish companies had demos, of say OEN instrument which could be used to test realism, but like I said, my friends are ALL very experienced in oriental keyboarding and especially with korg pa2x and pa800s, so getting sounds and styles from them, wouldn't be a problem, until at least I learn a bit about installing sounds, and about quality, then I can decide which packages are best.

So I flipped my opinion, probably pa2x is best for me, which I could have guessed based on the higher price, now it's time to find the best deal

karmathanever · Post by **karmathanever** » Sun Aug 09, 2009 6:51 am

Hi Michael

Have you checked out all the demos and video demos and tutorials at http://www.karma-labs.com?
I think you will see how different these 2 keyboards are.
Be very clear about what you want before buying... all the User Manuals are downloadable and there is also a massive amount on "youtube".

It seems like oriental/Turkish quality sounds is high on your list.

Personally, the MP3 recording feature is a nice "quick" recording tool however I record all my "production" bits onto a boss recording desk or at worst onto my PC/laptop - I don't like "MP3" as a final cut - that would never be a deciding factor to me.

List your requirements in priority sequence....

If you can, take your time and you'll make the right decision.

Good luck

Pete

BasariStudios · Post by **BasariStudios** » Sun Aug 09, 2009 7:35 am

Bear in mind that you could still finish a produt on the M3 waaaaaaaaayyyyyy
better then the PA2X i just have to dig how...it has better and more FX.

melka_ashur · Post by **melka_ashur** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:02 am

Thanks for the advice karma, I am gonna chekc out the link now. It soudns like what i've been looking for. Basari, what do you mean by better at finishing? in what way? Better quality final products? Even when using suplemental programs and not the built in mp3 recorder on the pa2x?

BasariStudios · Post by **BasariStudios** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:31 am

What i am trying to say is that M3 has better FX, more FX and better Rounting.
Thats for doing it on the synth, as for external programs the M3 sounds are
still superior to PA2X, for studio production since they cut thru better.
But thats for trained and experienced ears and its a more complex topic.
In simple words to you, if you wanna record and produce stuff in a studio or
whatever then go for the M3, it is far superior, sound and option wise.

melka_ashur · Post by **melka_ashur** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:47 am

As far as having the option to hook up a mic, and sing/record an audio track onto the instrumental tracks, do both the pa2x and the m3 have this option? As well as various effects which can be applied to the voice, such as playing harmonies of the voice via the keyboard keys? Both keyboards have pretty much the same capacities with regard to adding audio tracks via the mic? It is another one of my priorities. Again, it is probably better to record voice through another software perhaps straight through the computer, and add it to the instrumental tracks on the computer, but it is nice to have that option available on the keyboard itself like I know many do.

Rob Sherratt · Post by **Rob Sherratt** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:21 am

melka_ashur wrote:As far as having the option to hook up a mic, and sing/record an audio track onto the instrumental tracks, do both the pa2x and the m3 have this option? As well as various effects which can be applied to the voice, such as playing harmonies of the voice via the keyboard keys? Both keyboards have pretty much the same capacities with regard to adding audio tracks via the mic? It is another one of my priorities. Again, it is probably better to record voice through another software perhaps straight through the computer, and add it to the instrumental tracks on the computer, but it is nice to have that option available on the keyboard itself like I know many do.

The Pa2x is designed for performing live, including the audio facilities you need for live performance with vocal EFX and harmoniser. It has a 48v phantom power XLR socket and separate MIC input. You can record your playing and audio straight to MP3 on the Pa2x at a rate of 192 Kbit/sec. This is fine for demos e.g. youtube but is not the right format if your goal is to produce professional CD's which require digital audio recording at 44.1 Ksamples/sec (a bit rate of 1.411 Mbit/sec for 16 bit stereo).

The M3 is primarily a studio workstation, and you need other equipment e.g. hard disk recorder/ multitracker on a computer and audio interfaces to produce CD's. The M3 has no harmoniser for vocals, and no XLR input or phantom power, so you would also need a separate MIC preamp with XLR 48v power in order to use a high quality condenser mic. You can purchase a separate harmoniser box, e.g. TC-Helicon, if you need to automatically generate vocal harmonies.

Both the Pa2x and the M3 have a digital audio S/PDIF output for connection to a computer recorder at 48 Ksamples/sec. You would also need to do sample rate conversion to prepare audio CD's at the required sample rate of 44.1 Ksamples/sec.

Because the act of converting samples from one rate to another inside a computer can introduce distortion, some users of both Pa2x and M3 keyboards prefer to use an analog audio sampling box comnnected to their computer, which is capable of sampling directly at 44.1 Ksamples/sec, ready for preparing CD's.

When I've recorded using S/PDIF from both my Pa2x and my M3 to a computer multi-track recorder, I have always removed any EFX applied by the Pa2x or the M3, I converted to 44.1 ksamples/sec using software and I've applied software based EFX at the 44.1 ksamples/sec rate afterwards.

I can't distinguish any difference in the quality of the final sound, I think the Pa2x and the M3 produce identical results as far as quality of recording goes. They both have the same "disadvantage" of digital recording only at a rate of 48 Ksamples/sec. The audio hardware and EDS sample synthesis hardware on both keyboards is identical.

For recording purposes, I don't regard the enhanced EFX capabilities of the M3 as an advantage compared with the Pa2x because I remove all EFX before recording the tracks, and then I play about with adding EFX on the computer. However for live playing, the enhanced EFX capability on the M3 is an improvement compared with the Pa2x.

However the EFX capability of the M3 do not make it a good machine for live playing as a solo musician. In my opinion the Pa2x is the more suitable keyboard for live playing due to the XLR mic input, vocal harmoniser, style based accompaniments, single button controls for into/fill/vaar/endings etc.

But, where the M3 scores big time in the studio is that over 640 Mbytes of sampled sounds are provided as standard (so long as you purchase the optional EXB-M256 card), plus the optional EXB-RADIAS synth card give the ability to model many Moog-type analog synth sounds. The Pa2x has about 128 Mbytes of factory sampled sounds as standard, anything else has to be provided by the user and the user expansion botttoms out at 256 Mbytes with the optonal EXB-M256 card fitted. So, the M3 gives you as standard five times many more sounds than the Pa2x, and some of them are higher quality than the equivalent sounds on the Pa2x.

The M3 also implements Stephen Kay's Karma which is an algorithmic MIDI music generator controllable with sliders on the M3. When controlled by an expert musician, Karma is not repetitive, unlike the Style based accompaniments on the Pa2x, and many people produce records containing Karma generated backing music.

Now, you have to listen to all the demos produced on both the Pa2x and the M3 and decide which is right for you. There are thousands of demos from both keyboards on Youtube. There are also demos on Korg's web sites and at Karma Labs. Also go to a dealer that sells both keyboards, and arrange to spend at least a day in the shop with both machines before deciding.

Good luck making the choice, and if you find it too difficult to decide, buy both of them

Korg Forums

Needs input from M3 and PA2X users on which is better for me

Which keyboard in general do you think is better?

Needs input from M3 and PA2X users on which is better for me

thank you