Radias is Great...But with Pro Tools...eh?

[dhouston]

***You can skip to the blue section for the actual question, sorry for being long-winded***
Hi Guys,

Ive been on your forum for the past week and I am very pleased, excited and impressed as to what a great forum this is. Im super new as you can tell but im sure ill catch on to the rules. I love making Hip-hop, Pop, RnB music and especially Alternative music. I just picked up a Radias and I know why you all love it and have since day 1. But im having a small problem, let me explain...

My Setup
I have Pro Tools 8 M-Powered on a Vista PC (surprisingly not bad, but i know) going to a Project Mix IO..The Midi in/outs of the Project Mix are going to the Radias.

I put the radias in "local off" mode and i would like for pro tools to control the sound upon playback of the midi files. But i would also like to hear sound while im actually recording and while i play back the midi file that was recorded as if the Radias were a Rtas or Vst.

I have already set up the Radias midi wise and I can record sound to an audio track...Pro tools even controls the Radias (from midi) but when i playback, everything is silenced and when i stop the play back i can hear the radias on the (Rec Enabled) audio track. Nothing is muted/solo'd and im just lost as to what is the right way to do this.

Thanks alot guys and I really happy to be apart of the team...

[xmlguy]

What cables do you have hooked up between your Radias and the computer, and which specific jacks do they connect to on both?

[dhouston]

Thanks for the reply.

I have the Midi In/Out of the Radias going to my Midi in/out of the Project Mix IO and the Project mix is going to my PC (via Firewire). I also have a usb going from my radias to my PC

[xmlguy]

Midi is not audio. None of the audio of the Radias is going anywhere. The audio is coming from the L+R audio output jacks, which you apparently haven't hooked up to the computer.

It's also seems pointless to have the midi in/out hooked up to the Project Mix IO at all. You have USB-midi hooked up to the computer, and that's all you need for sending/receiving midi to the Radias. More midi to the computer doesn't give you anything, and it's not going to get the Radias sounds into your computer. You need audio cables for that.

[dhouston]

Oh No, i can record audio, meaning through my audio cable which is going from the radias (left mono) into the project mix io (instrument line one). The only reason i had the usb was because I forgot to unplug it after i updated the radias. The usb didnt matter anyway (i thought) because i have the routing of the radias set at midi only. lol...needless to say, i unplugged and tried again...sigh, no luck as of yet...

[dhouston]

hmmm...I found this out tweeking around:

If i have an aux track with its input set as (instrument one on my project mix) i can hear the sound...ok good, its just like if i had an audio track record enabled, only this time when i want to record i still hear the radias while recording midi...great, but now the midi isnt showing up on the midi track while i attempt to record...

So I hope I am on the right track...Assuming if i get the midi to record, i can do it this way:

Have 4 tracks:
1) Master Fader
2) Midi Track 1 (Rec Enabled)
3) Aux Track (Input: Inst 1 of the Project Mix, which goes to Radias' L/mono audio out)
4) Audio Track

So, in theory, if I get the Midi to record on the Midi track. And get what I want perfected i can then route the signal of the radias to an Audio track (rec enable) and have the performance id want. Or would there be a more logical way of doing this?

God I hope this makes sense

[xmlguy]

It would be easier if you accurately answer the questions you've been given.

I had asked "What cables do you have hooked up between your Radias and the computer, and which specific jacks do they connect to on both?." Then you responded with only the midi connections, omitting the audio connections, wasting my time and yours. Everything you are mentioning about midi is irrelevant to solving the problem you are having with hearing the audio of the Radias, because midi is not audio. In fact, unhook all the midi connections. Then start recording in ProTools, then hit some keys on the Radias, then stop recording in ProTools, then go back to start and play. You should hear everything you played on the Radias replayed back to you. That should all work without any midi involved. If it doesn't, then you've now have a clear path to discovering the audio problem. Lesson: for complex problems, start eliminating irrelevant factors until all that's left is the minimum necessary to reproduce the essential problem.

Since you now have described the audio connection, I can tell you that it's wrong too. You should have two cables connected, one to L/Mono and the other to R, which go into a stereo Audio input on your computer. This problem isn't causing you not to hear it, but it is causing you to use the wrong audio configuration in the sequencer. You should be recording to a stereo audio track.

At this point, the fact you're using a Radias is also irrelevant to the problem. The problem must be on the ProTools or Project Mix configuration or your understanding of it. You could substitute any synth for the Radias and you'd have the same problem. So now you should go to the ProTools support or forums for the quickest way to find what's wrong and to fix it. Good Luck!

[ihisert]

I think I get what the dhouston is trying to do (though I could be wrong).

Let me try to re-summarize what you are tying to do:

1) You want to record a performance using the Radias via MIDI into Pro-Tools and then be able to hear that performance back through the Radias itself (and not any monitoring outputs from Project I/O)

2) This will let you tweak the MIDI performance so you can get it just right.

3) Then you will arm and record an audio track in Pro Tools, playing the midi track with the audio from the Radias being sent to the armed audio track.

I think the issue is that you don't need the aux track. On Midi Track 1, make sure both the In and the Out are the Radias (or whatever the MIDI designation is for Project Mix).

You should now be able to record the MIDI track from the Radias and hear the audio (from the Radias). If you don't hear anything, try hooking the audio out from the Radias to something other than Project Mix (like it's own amplifier). Alternately, you may also want to look up "Input Only Monitoring" in your Pro Tools user manual - flipping this setting might let you hear the audio from the Radias when the audio track isn't armed for recording.

When you are finished getting the MIDI file right, hook the audio from the Radias (and stereo really is the way to go, so use L+R cables), into Project Mix and arm the Audio Track. When you hit record, you should now be able to hear the Radias through Project Mix as the MIDI file is playing back through the Radias and it is recording the audio.

Hope this helps / works.

[dhouston]

It would be easier if you accurately answer the questions you've been given.

I had asked "What cables do you have hooked up between your Radias and the computer, and which specific jacks do they connect to on both?." Then you responded with only the midi connections, omitting the audio connections, wasting my time and yours. Everything you are mentioning about midi is irrelevant to solving the problem you are having with hearing the audio of the Radias, because midi is not audio. In fact, unhook all the midi connections. Then start recording in ProTools, then hit some keys on the Radias, then stop recording in ProTools, then go back to start and play. You should hear everything you played on the Radias replayed back to you. That should all work without any midi involved. If it doesn't, then you've now have a clear path to discovering the audio problem. Lesson: for complex problems, start eliminating irrelevant factors until all that's left is the minimum necessary to reproduce the essential problem.

Since you now have described the audio connection, I can tell you that it's wrong too. You should have two cables connected, one to L/Mono and the other to R, which go into a stereo Audio input on your computer. This problem isn't causing you not to hear it, but it is causing you to use the wrong audio configuration in the sequencer. You should be recording to a stereo audio track.

At this point, the fact you're using a Radias is also irrelevant to the problem. The problem must be on the ProTools or Project Mix configuration or your understanding of it. You could substitute any synth for the Radias and you'd have the same problem. So now you should go to the ProTools support or forums for the quickest way to find what's wrong and to fix it. Good Luck!

ok guy… that could have really been given without the animosity (maybe its my post count)...I believe if people actually read the question accurately then their time would not feel as if it were wasted. Although I forgot the audio cable in reply to your question, common sense should let you know that if I am able to record, I have the cable connected correctly. And I have a Project Mix IO not an M-Box so the only cord that would be going to my pc would be the fire wire cord from my Project Mix IO. Just because I am new to this forum does not mean I am new to the logic or environment.

Also, the audio is setup correctly. Shame on you for even saying that stereo is the “only right way” to record. Actually if you do your research you’ll find out that mixing in mono is better, yes I said BETTER, than it would be in stereo. See for yourself or just search Google:

http://www.thewhippinpost.co.uk/mixing- ... ips-p1.htm

So let’s do this…Stop…Read, Re-read…and then answer…k

Thanks ihisert for your suggestions. It really shed some light on the subject. I believe it may be the “Input Only Monitoring” setting I need to change. Will let you know how that works out later today. Again, thanks for the great input…

[tonyman]

Hey fella,

Welcome to the board, not many trolls here, huh.... I'm sure some one can help you whether your issue is Radias related or not..

Although I am not familiar with Project Mix IO or Pro-tool. I think your problem maybe to do with the way you are monitoring the Audio channel that is coming into Pro-tools..

Obviously, from your first post, your MIDI connections and Audio appear to be about right. That is, if you can send midi from Protools and record the audio then you are connected ok. I understand you can't hear when recording?

what are the "input monitor" options you have when a channel is record enabled?


I use Reaper (only because it feking great)
I can monitor: the Channel (always or when record enabled, or not)
also, I can set: "Monitor Input", "Monitor Input (Tape Auto Style)", "Monitor track Media when recording".

Monitor Input (Tape Auto Style) means that when I "Rec-Enable" a track I can monitor the input, but when I start to record it "mutes". (a traditional tape recorder would feed the newly recorded signal back to the desk)

Check your settings for this..
Does that help?


Personally I prefer to route audio as following

Source Audio (Radias) -> Into the a mixing desk channel --> Main out (speakers) . Then I take the output of the channel "insert" to computer's i/o interface..

If your desk has no "channel insert" you can use like this, then you can use an AUX send channel to feed the computer.

This setup mimics a tradition line signal when going to multi track tape
This way I always monitor straight from the Mixing desk channel before the signal goes to the computer.

I nether EQ any signals before I record and prefer to get the sound as right as can be with all EQ flat.. I don't EQ much when mixing down unless for effect, or to help different sounds jump out

Some folk prefer to put the audio straight into the computer and use software monitoring either from the I/O device or from the DAW. This always prone to some "latency" (IE the delayed time it takes the audio signal to be converted).

FWIW.. recording a mono signal is the way to go, unless you are mastering, recording a single stereo item, recording a pair of overheads or some such.. sometimes I record a few MIDI channels play them back to the Radias and record a stereo pair from a Radias..

and yeah, ain't the Radias a lovely bit of kit.. hours of fun.

[xmlguy]

ok guy… that could have really been given without the animosity (maybe its my post count)...I believe if people actually read the question accurately then their time would not feel as if it were wasted. Although I forgot the audio cable in reply to your question, common sense should let you know that if I am able to record, I have the cable connected correctly. And I have a Project Mix IO not an M-Box so the only cord that would be going to my pc would be the fire wire cord from my Project Mix IO. Just because I am new to this forum does not mean I am new to the logic or environment.

Also, the audio is setup correctly. Shame on you for even saying that stereo is the “only right way” to record. Actually if you do your research you’ll find out that mixing in mono is better, yes I said BETTER, than it would be in stereo. See for yourself or just search Google:

http://www.thewhippinpost.co.uk/mixing- ... ips-p1.htm

So let’s do this…Stop…Read, Re-read…and then answer…k

Thanks ihisert for your suggestions. It really shed some light on the subject. I believe it may be the “Input Only Monitoring” setting I need to change. Will let you know how that works out later today. Again, thanks for the great input…

I've been mixing professionally for more than 30 years. You have fallen for the shite, so you can believe what you want to believe. Seems a shame for all the keyboard manufacturers to spend all this time recording stereo multisamples and making stereo synth structures when they would've saved themselves a lot of effort if they knew that suckers were going to believe whatever they read on the internet and use only the L/Mono jack because they think Mono is better. Most of us know that stereo sampled and stereo synths sound better, even in for live performance. But if you don't hear the difference then I'm just sorry for you.

It is not common sense to know that your audio cables are connected when you have omitted saying they were connected when specifically asked for all cables between the synth and computer. That's because the vast majority of people who ask this question only have the midi cables connected and not the audio cables, because they think midi is audio. They even _think_ they're recording audio when they aren't in fact doing so, because they might hear the synth (through separate monitors or headphones) play back after they record, but only the midi is being recorded and played back. So I have to assume you don't know s**t when you ask your kind of question, even though I don't know you, because it wastes more time to trace down an audio problem if the audio cables aren't hooked up. It's like having to ask if the power cable is hooked up to the computer and wall when the computer doesn't powerup, it is a stupid and obvious question to those who know what they're doing, but it is the best question for those who haven't checked that. So when you give the wrong answer and only state midi cables, you fit into the profile of someone who doesn't know the difference between midi and audio. If you had described the audio connections, my response would've gone in a completely different direction.

Regardless, your question has nothing to do with the synth. This is the wrong place to solve your problem. If you can't appreciate the helpfulness of that comment, then too bad for you. I also gave you a specific way to help focus on the audio problem by eliminating midi as a variable, and I'll bet you didn't even try that, so I'm wasting my time with you. Have a nice day.

[cymbaline]

I tihnk the biggest issue here is understanding exactly how to rout all signals so that things can be auditioned, recorded and played back. To do this, I suggest making a template in Pro-Tools with an Aux track for auditioning while recording midi and making edits, and an audio track to print the audio once all midi is where it needs to be. If you create a template of this configuration, you can easily import those tracks/settings into any project without having to set it up again every time.

[dhouston]

ok guy… that could have really been given without the animosity (maybe its my post count)...I believe if people actually read the question accurately then their time would not feel as if it were wasted. Although I forgot the audio cable in reply to your question, common sense should let you know that if I am able to record, I have the cable connected correctly. And I have a Project Mix IO not an M-Box so the only cord that would be going to my pc would be the fire wire cord from my Project Mix IO. Just because I am new to this forum does not mean I am new to the logic or environment.

Also, the audio is setup correctly. Shame on you for even saying that stereo is the “only right way” to record. Actually if you do your research you’ll find out that mixing in mono is better, yes I said BETTER, than it would be in stereo. See for yourself or just search Google:

http://www.thewhippinpost.co.uk/mixing- ... ips-p1.htm

So let’s do this…Stop…Read, Re-read…and then answer…k

Thanks ihisert for your suggestions. It really shed some light on the subject. I believe it may be the “Input Only Monitoring” setting I need to change. Will let you know how that works out later today. Again, thanks for the great input…

I've been mixing professionally for more than 30 years. You have fallen for the shite, so you can believe what you want to believe. Seems a shame for all the keyboard manufacturers to spend all this time recording stereo multisamples and making stereo synth structures when they would've saved themselves a lot of effort if they knew that suckers were going to believe whatever they read on the internet and use only the L/Mono jack because they think Mono is better. Most of us know that stereo sampled and stereo synths sound better, even in for live performance. But if you don't hear the difference then I'm just sorry for you.

It is not common sense to know that your audio cables are connected when you have omitted saying they were connected when specifically asked for all cables between the synth and computer. That's because the vast majority of people who ask this question only have the midi cables connected and not the audio cables, because they think midi is audio. They even _think_ they're recording audio when they aren't in fact doing so, because they might hear the synth (through separate monitors or headphones) play back after they record, but only the midi is being recorded and played back. So I have to assume you don't know s**t when you ask your kind of question, even though I don't know you, because it wastes more time to trace down an audio problem if the audio cables aren't hooked up. It's like having to ask if the power cable is hooked up to the computer and wall when the computer doesn't powerup, it is a stupid and obvious question to those who know what they're doing, but it is the best question for those who haven't checked that. So when you give the wrong answer and only state midi cables, you fit into the profile of someone who doesn't know the difference between midi and audio. If you had described the audio connections, my response would've gone in a completely different direction.

Regardless, your question has nothing to do with the synth. This is the wrong place to solve your problem. If you can't appreciate the helpfulness of that comment, then too bad for you. I also gave you a specific way to help focus on the audio problem by eliminating midi as a variable, and I'll bet you didn't even try that, so I'm wasting my time with you. Have a nice day.

Ok maybe it’s me but context clues just let me know that:

A) you’ve been "so called" mixing for more than 30 years, which in turn means that you are at least in your mid 40's...

B) Wow you are really 40-50 years old, arguing or debating with me (a person you don’t know) about a product you apparently don’t know either...

...I’m 21...ok...and even I have grown tired of hearing you rant on about why you are qualified to attempt to answer a question you haven’t came close to solving. The two other people who posted gave WAY more info and help than you did with your 4 posts...I see why your post count is worthy of Platinum status...

Geeze, just think if I could focus all of my time to the forums...I'd be platinum member too, in his 40's...

why are you trying to justify how you "think" you helped...you You can stop now....because you are so last week…Dang, now im wasting my time…Talk about irony lol…:o

[dhouston]

I tihnk the biggest issue here is understanding exactly how to rout all signals so that things can be auditioned, recorded and played back. To do this, I suggest making a template in Pro-Tools with an Aux track for auditioning while recording midi and making edits, and an audio track to print the audio once all midi is where it needs to be. If you create a template of this configuration, you can easily import those tracks/settings into any project without having to set it up again every time.

Thanks cymbaline...I am going to try that later today...i would have had the correct answer this weekend but I decided to finally downgrade to XP Pro...so im just reinstalling everything and thats a process for me but itll be great when its finished...ill post back today with the results, which i have high hopes for...

[dhouston]

Hey fella,

Welcome to the board, not many trolls here, huh.... I'm sure some one can help you whether your issue is Radias related or not..

Although I am not familiar with Project Mix IO or Pro-tool. I think your problem maybe to do with the way you are monitoring the Audio channel that is coming into Pro-tools..

Obviously, from your first post, your MIDI connections and Audio appear to be about right. That is, if you can send midi from Protools and record the audio then you are connected ok. I understand you can't hear when recording?

what are the "input monitor" options you have when a channel is record enabled?


I use Reaper (only because it feking great)
I can monitor: the Channel (always or when record enabled, or not)
also, I can set: "Monitor Input", "Monitor Input (Tape Auto Style)", "Monitor track Media when recording".

Monitor Input (Tape Auto Style) means that when I "Rec-Enable" a track I can monitor the input, but when I start to record it "mutes". (a traditional tape recorder would feed the newly recorded signal back to the desk)

Check your settings for this..
Does that help?


Personally I prefer to route audio as following

Source Audio (Radias) -> Into the a mixing desk channel --> Main out (speakers) . Then I take the output of the channel "insert" to computer's i/o interface..

If your desk has no "channel insert" you can use like this, then you can use an AUX send channel to feed the computer.

This setup mimics a tradition line signal when going to multi track tape
This way I always monitor straight from the Mixing desk channel before the signal goes to the computer.

I nether EQ any signals before I record and prefer to get the sound as right as can be with all EQ flat.. I don't EQ much when mixing down unless for effect, or to help different sounds jump out

Some folk prefer to put the audio straight into the computer and use software monitoring either from the I/O device or from the DAW. This always prone to some "latency" (IE the delayed time it takes the audio signal to be converted).

FWIW.. recording a mono signal is the way to go, unless you are mastering, recording a single stereo item, recording a pair of overheads or some such.. sometimes I record a few MIDI channels play them back to the Radias and record a stereo pair from a Radias..

and yeah, ain't the Radias a lovely bit of kit.. hours of fun.

Thanks Tonyman..."Trolls" is such an understatement lol, especially when they're like 40-50 years old...but thanks for your thoughts, they really helped...I am also going to give that Reaper program a look...Ill let you know how things turn out later today...gasp