M50 Organs

Aussie-Andy · Post by **Aussie-Andy** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:53 pm

Having spent more time trying to tweak Hammond sounds out of my M50, and still being a bit of a novice with a Korg interface. I have found at lot more potential lying beneath the surface of the M50 for organ creation than I initially thought, and am starting to get more satisfying results. It really is a great keyboard in so many ways.

However, for me the method to get the best and most versatile Hammond sounds on a workstation was present in the Roland approach I mentioned earlier.
It seems you begin with the classic settings cleanly sampled ;
888000000, 888800000 with either perc 2nd/3rd on or off, chorus on or off. With a handful of individually sampled drawbars to mix in as you please, the most usable ones. Throw in a passable rotary and vintage overdrive effect and you're in business.
This has been implemented (approx) by Roland in it's workstations for over ten years now. While not perfect, the principle is in place.
The key is to provide good, clean and raw samples, not full settings with effects present.
This you can do with your workstations effects later and to the individuals preference. A rompler needs to utilise the limited space available with the best possible building blocks with which to build your programs.

Not sure if I explained that very well. But I'm sure you know what I mean.

Again, that being said I think the M50 is a brilliant and inspiring keyboard, a real achivement by Korg and it's design team. Thank you.

kikedeolivos · Post by **kikedeolivos** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 4:05 am

I agree with you, but you asked for a "passable" Leslie effect and the one on the M50 is far away from that. The rotor has no punch at all and the horn is so off..., not to mention the "ratios" or speeds provided by the algorithm, very unrealistic. (For example, how the horn and the rotor ramp up / down, etc. and the balance between them: Korg should have provided different volume and EQ settings for the horn and the rotor)
At this point, I would have preferred 4 outs (like on the X50) to insert a pedal just for the organs. (Rotosphere, Boss RT 20, etc.)

Also, I agree that the samples or Raw waveforms provided by Korg on this instruments, not all of them, should have been recorded plain, with no Chorus & Percussion. Then, via effects, we would have been able to program to taste.

Funny thing: I've just came back from a friend's band practice. The keyboard player has an O1W Fd and on top an X3 and the organs on those boards (what, programmed like 15 / 20 years ago?) aren't that different from those on the M50, no kidding.

aaronpico · Post by **aaronpico** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 4:34 pm

I agree, the organs aren't fantastic, but many are better than on my XP-30. I was considering buying the Electro 2 on clearance so I could have outstanding organs, but when I weighe the percs, I came to this conclusion:

Between the Vintage Keys Pro Pack and Stesco's contributions, and the sequencer, the very good synth sounds, and more on the M50,...AND the fact that I got it for 20% off the Musicians Friend price, It seemed to outweigh the Electro in all around features. And really, the organs aren't dreadfull, they're just not fantastic.

I'll go back later for a Nord if I need to.

McHale · Post by **McHale** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 4:57 pm

I take it that you're not programming much of your own organ sounds and are tweaking the stock sounds? While the M50 and M3 aren't organ modeling keyboards, the organs and effects are FAR from "dreadful." In fact, the organs have come a LONG way since the Triton series and I liked those. The organs would easily fool the casual listener and to be quite honest, I haven't found an organ sound or effect I can't get on the M3 or M50 with pretty good results.

When I first got my M3 and M50, I didn't find them much better than the Triton's either. That is until I started to program my own sounds and found how much they have added.

If you really want to be authentic, you'd be using a combi with 9 sine wave programs (one for each drawbar) tuned at different intervals. I have a few combis programmed that way so I can tweak them live to my liking.

Unless you're waiting for someone to program the sounds for you (which it sounds like you are), the sounds are in there. You just have to get them out.

-Mc

kikedeolivos · Post by **kikedeolivos** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 5:41 pm

Dear Mc (with all my respect to you), please allow me to disagree with you.

[quote="McHale"]...The organs would easily fool the casual listener...[quote="McHale"] They won't fool me. I don't give a crap about the "casual" listener.

[quote="McHale"] you really want to be authentic, you'd be using a combi with 8 sine wave programs (one for each drawbar) tuned at different intervals. [quote="McHale"] Those are Bread and Butter sounds that should have come programmed by Korg: I want to play and enjoy, not spend hours tweaking. Why do you think they got out the Vintage Keys package with just EP and Clav's? Because there's NO way to give users better Hammond Organ sounds. They are still offering 1990's samples and a 2000's Leslie effect.

[quote="McHale"] you're waiting for someone to program the sounds for you (which it sounds like you are), the sounds are in there. You just have to get them out.[quote="McHale"] Even though I'm not a wizard at programming, I understand the concept of programming. I've auditioned Dan Tesco's organ drawbar patches and I don't understand why everybody is raving about them, really.
The sounds are NOT there Mc: not enough Raw waveforms and the Leslie sim, well, as I said earlier, no different from a Korg X5D which I had. More parameters? sure, yes BUT they are NOT worth if they are SO off from a "decent" simulation.

Take care.

McHale · Post by **McHale** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 7:29 pm

Honestly, I don't get it. What waveforms are missing? What sound can't you get with it? I still see the problem as presets vs. custom sounds. What kept me from initially buying a CX-3 years ago was I could get every organ sound I needed from the sampled waveforms. I wouldn't have the on-the-fly tweakability as if I had drawbars, but I didn't need 'em.

Organs and EP's are two of the best things Korg does best in their ROMplers in my opinion. Can you give some examples of sounds that you can't get on the M50?

-Mc

McHale · Post by **McHale** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 9:00 pm

I love it. 3 guys falling all over themselves to rip on Korg's organ sounds. But as soon as I ask for an example of a sound they can't reproduce on the M50 or M3, all of a sudden, everybody's quiet?

"Put up or shut up" moments are great. Aren't they?

-Mc

aaronpico · Post by **aaronpico** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:13 am

The M50 organ programs I saw on YouTube were part of the reason I bought it. Also the great synth sounds. I've played a Roland XP-30 for 8 years and recently purchased my first Kurzweil, and now I also have the M50 - my first Korg. I'm sorry I missed out on the Korg sound for all those years, but hey, I'm on board, now. I'm not diss'nhe M50 whatsoever; I haven't even scratched the surface of what it can do. My comments on the organs (above) was an out of the box comparison in my bdecision process. I decided on the Korg.

kikedeolivos · Post by **kikedeolivos** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:51 am

McHale wrote:I love it. 3 guys falling all over themselves to rip on Korg's organ sounds. But as soon as I ask for an example of a sound they can't reproduce on the M50 or M3, all of a sudden, everybody's quiet?

"Put up or shut up" moments are great. Aren't they?

-Mc

Obviously, I'm one of three you are referring to; I don't have the time you have to stay 24x7 on a forum: I promised myself not to loose my temper and treat you with respect and I ask for the same.

You want examples?

Santana: Evil Ways/You just don't care/Soul Sacrifice.(Gregg Rolie)
Eric Clapton live w/Billy Preston performing Over the Rainbow.
Dr. Lonnie Smith: The Whip / Backtrack or anything from him
Anything from Jimmy Smith, Joey De Francesco
The Beatles-medley- I want You (organ)
Toto: Rosanna, Animal (David Paich)
Booker T on Green Onions with the Blues Brothers

Is it enough or I should go on?

As you said earlier, you didn't buy a CX-3 because you could get away with the M3/M50 samples: If you are such a Programming Wizard and can get ANY of the organs mentioned above, could you care to share your findings with us?

I'm going to repeat what I said: it's just MUCH more than the drawbars: I had a CX-3 and a Hammond with a Leslie 147 and I know what I'm talking about. It would be a miracle to have ANY of those sounds with a "convincing" Leslie simulator on any of these Romplers, I'm NOT asking for a VB3 inside the M50 (that would be awesome); what I'm asking about the latest workstation from Korg is to stop using Organ samples and a Leslie effect from 1995. And a last thing I said in a previous post: why do you think the Rock/Jazz Organ is almost absent from Korg demos? Food for thought.

I'm NOT bashing Korg, this is my 4th piece of gear from them, just disappointed with the Organs on the M50, that's it.

jpq · Post by **jpq** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:16 pm

Aussie-Andy wrote:This one's got me curious.

How can you create any B3 organ sound you want on a workstation. In terms of versatility I would say the Roland SRJV waves were the most versatile because they individually sampled the 2nd, 3rd percussion, all drawbars, many with chorus and leslie settings as well as a few overdriven settings. Korg does not have this on their workstations. The problem with the Roland samples was that they weren't overly bright compared with Korg which have a little more bite and grit to their sound. The problem with Korg samples is they do not sample all drawbars individually, only a hand full of settings. Which make them no where near as versatile. That being said, I still prefer the overall character of Korg's organs over Roland, with Yamaha not even worth a rating, (sorry Yamaha fans).

i say in old alesis quadrasynths at least s4+ and never ones also have all drawbars sampled and 2nd,3nd perucision,and some premade "mixes". and yamaha motif series also have samples (both types what mentioned in alesis comment) but i liked still most of korgs hammond emulations sometimes also roland maybe works even alesis works beter than yamaha i think yamaha its too clean to me maybe. its bit odd i know my most pricey synth at this time (at least i think it its becouse its nevest and keyboard version) is Yamaha but i mainly like now more Roland,Korg ,and Kurzweil synths. I dont talk analog synths which are own case. i buyed this Yamaha becouse all stuff what roland,korg in this time in this price range its too toy in one roland path editing its too simple (actually i not think better presets are more important than complex synth engine,rolands timbre its much musical to me but now i also like my yamaha more..) and korgs have smallest samplerom and i have korg problems in so long ago and i liked some yamaha cs1x and i thinked never yamaha can also make them truth is at least not easily and some are even impossible some lfo waveform stuff is missing for example and some samples. if i now buy someday buy new hardware sample synth i think i get roland. ps. what i doing here i still own korg tr-rack,and still want know all possible choices.

Aussie-Andy · Post by **Aussie-Andy** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:25 am

Come on everybody, it's not that serious. We need to be respectful and considerate of each others opinions. The art of music-making is supposed to be first and foremost fun, isn't it. Anyway, no harm done, know in advance that I appreciate any advice and feedback that I can get from the members of this forum, since we all share a common passion.

I haven't had the time over the last week to even play my M50, let alone check out the forum, mainly due to intense pressure at work. However, I did have time to download and try out briefly the soundset created by the fellow from the karma-labs forum, (sorry. forgotten his name), that was posted here. Great work, loved it. An example of how with experience you can really get so much more out of a workstation that what's immediately apparent. His drawbar emulator using sine waves was particularly creative and inspiring. It showed me that I still have a long way to go in terms of general programming and using Korg gear in particular.

That being said, the settings I'm after and still can't get to a truly satisfying level are your basic 888 000 000/ 888 800 000 with perc on/off and chorus on/off with the option for a good slow leslie (not a big fan of fast leslie). Just can't seem to get it right, and the bottom octave especially always sounds weak, with the limited samples sounding very overly streched.

kikedeolivos · Post by **kikedeolivos** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:46 pm

I just bought the license for VB3 and, oh my God, this is a B3, miles away better than NI B4ll. It's a shame that I will have to bring a $1800 laptop to rehearsals and gigs but can't do with Korg rompler organs. I hope some day we'll get a firmware update for the organs.

jpscoey · Post by **jpscoey** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:35 am

kikedeolivos wrote:It's a shame that I will have to bring a $1800 laptop to rehearsals and gigs but can't do with Korg rompler organs.

$1800???..... Nord Electro, maybe?

kikedeolivos · Post by **kikedeolivos** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:55 am

jpscoey wrote:
kikedeolivos wrote:It's a shame that I will have to bring a $1800 laptop to rehearsals and gigs but can't do with Korg rompler organs.
$1800???..... Nord Electro, maybe?

That's the cost of a Macbook (which I have) in Argentina.

jpscoey · Post by **jpscoey** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:01 am

kikedeolivos wrote:
jpscoey wrote:
kikedeolivos wrote:It's a shame that I will have to bring a $1800 laptop to rehearsals and gigs but can't do with Korg rompler organs.
$1800???..... Nord Electro, maybe?
That's the cost of a Macbook (which I have) in Argentina.

Ok - but would you rather carry around a computer to play your live music,

or a REAL 'organic' (forgive the pun!) keyboard?