My new padKONTROL is great, but OFF by One Octave

[Yikes]

I assign MIDI note number A3 (pitch A, 3rd octave) to a padKONTROL trigger pad.
But it does not trigger "A3" in Native Instruments Battery3 or in KitCore (both software drum synths).
It triggers "A2" (pitch A, 2nd octave) incorrectly, and consistently.

I have posted inquiries in other online User Forums and also found a thread here,
from 2008 that is directly on point for this problem:

"PadKontrol & Ableton Live MIDI note problem"
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... rol+octave

According to that link and another on GearSlutz, the problem appears to be consistant in all software applications,
including Ableton and Reason, Sony Acid Pro 7 (which is my DAW) and Sonar.
Certainly there are others I haven't discovered, so this is a known, global problem.

Is there a firmware patch to resolve this problem?

Thanks

[X-Trade]

It isn't a problem as such. It is merely a disagreement - there is no set standard naming convention for musical notes. Some DAWs and hardware have middle-C as C4, others have it as C3.

When you consider that the note name you see is only an abstract name for what it is actually transmitting - a number, as all midi notes are merely a value between 0 and 127.

It isn't really necessary for a 'firmware patch', or anything like that, just set your assignments an octave higher.

[Yikes]

It is merely a disagreement - there is no set standard naming convention for musical notes. Some DAWs and hardware have middle-C as C4, others have it as C3.

...the note name you see is only an abstract name for what it is actually transmitting - a number between 0 and 127.

just set your assignments an octave higher.

Thanks for the insights. Not arguing, but asking for further comment from you.

I studied every review, online video tutorial and user comment I could find in researching this purchase so as to keep things simple and straightforward (MIDI drove me crazy a decade ago). I never saw one word about padKONTROL users having to rethink pad note assignments to accommodate a known disagreemnent. Never heard of users of other big-name pad devices doing so either. And come to think of it, I don't recall any such problem with my nanoPAD (which I had to return due to an unreliable pad #12) I replaced it with the older, but more feature-rich padKONTROL.

Based on my (limited) research this morning, I get the impression that this issue must be accommodated in all the popular/major DAW and softsynth applications.

Q1. Why would all (or most) current software be in-sync with one another, and out-of-sync with the pad KONTROL convention?

Q2. Does the AKIA MPD32 suffer this same disagreement with regard to MIDI note numbers? As stated, I've never seen any mention of anyone using any drum pad hardware having to stop and re-program every pad in every scene - down by one octave.

I read a complaint here from 2006 or 07 where the padKontrol owner inquired as to why the pK had no Octave Shift feature. Perhaps this issue explains why he felt the need for one.

Q3. I can't experiment with the pK right now, so maybe you can tell me. Does the same disagreement occur with regard to Control Change values? If a DAW transport function requires number X be sent, does the pK actually send X+1, or even X+12?

No disregard toward you or this otherwise excellent product. I'm just asking direct questions so I can decide whether 'the pain will outweigh the pleasure' or vice versa.

Thanks

[X-Trade]

Q3. I can't experiment with the pK right now, so maybe you can tell me. Does the same disagreement occur with regard to Control Change values? If a DAW transport function requires number X be sent, does the pK actually send X+1, or even X+12?

No disregard toward you or this otherwise excellent product. I'm just asking direct questions so I can decide whether 'the pain will outweigh the pleasure' or vice versa.

Thanks

I don't have a PadKontrol so can't help you with any specific details, however I can say that this issue has come up before from both PadKontrol and nanoPad users on this forum.


Also, with the above quoted question, I think you're missing the point.

When you hit a pad, it will send a Note On number, with the note number and the velocity.
The note on number will be which ever note has been assigned to that pad. In the case of the example, lets say it is middle C, which is MIDI note number 60. Your drum software/DAW/whatever is still recieving MIDI note number 60, it is just calling it C3, whilst the PadKontrol calls it C4.

So if a pad or controller is set to transmit CC4 (as in Continuous Controller Number 4), it will still transmit a value for controller number 4.

There are also disagreements in the music technology world with other numbers such as program changes (mainly, but also in the display of controller numbers, etc. but generally their names, not values), for example, the GM standard has the programs numbered 1-128, whilst KORG and other manufacturers number their programs in all but the GM bank 0-127. Regardless, it is still just an arbitrary offset definition to allow us to understand the numbers better, a program change of 127 or GM 128 is still transmitting the binary number of 1111111.

the point is that it is the display of the values to the user that differs, not the value itself.
some systems call middle-C C4, others call it C3. Some documented systems called it C5

Basically, there are those that number the bottom octave as 0, some that number it as -1, and others that number it as -2.


for example as mentioned here:
http://highlyliquid.com/support/library ... e-numbers/
http://tomscarff.110mb.com/midi_analyse ... ctaves.htm
http://www.blitter.com/~russtopia/MIDI/ ... otenum.htm


I don't personally see how difficult it can be to remember to put a 6 instead of a 5, etc. Obviously it can get mixed up and you end up going two octaves the other way. Write it down on a post-it or something.

[Yikes]

X-Trade ==

Thanks for your detailed and patient replies. I do understand your point. "C4" is a naming convention for a particular Note ON numbered MIDI signal - just as a typed number '7' is a representation of whatever its binary equivalent is. The computer only sees the binary version.

Perhaps more importantly, I now accept your point. I was resistant because it's disappointing to have a GREAT new tool that, despite it's capabilities, adds yet another minor complication to an already confusing technological mix. And worst of all, the culprit is again MIDI conventions

I'm learning several deep software tools simultaneously, and padKONTROL atop it all. My brain is fried.

Thank you for taking time to help, and thanks very much for the links. I'll avail myself right now.

P.S. I heard from another reliable source that the nanoPAD follows the same MIDI Note Naming convention
as does the padKONTROL. I STAND CORRECTED. Apparently all Korg products do. My software is all current/new and it all follows
"the OTHER convention". So I wonder if the next padKONTROL will change to accommodate what appears to be
a revised/modernized approach?

[Yikes]

X- Trade ==

I figure I should tell you about this, because you're a great and willing source of information for the rest of us flopping about trying to make sense of it all. LOL Maybe you'll use of the information to help the next one (or me, the next time I get confused )

My preferred drum software is Native Instruments Battery 3. A member of another forum pointed out that the Battery 3 Options page contains a "Transpose MIDI IN (octave)" parameter.

I bumped it up from the default setting of 0 (zero) to a setting of 1, and all is well. Duh.

Thanks again

[Yikes]

for example as mentioned here:
http://highlyliquid.com/support/library ... e-numbers/
http://tomscarff.110mb.com/midi_analyse ... ctaves.htm
http://www.blitter.com/~russtopia/MIDI/ ... otenum.htm

Thanks for the MIDI links. They're very clear and I wish I had learned it all years ago. If I had understood all this 'back when' I might have become so successful that I'd be long dead from a drug overdose by now.

[darkenedsoul]

Hi,

I have the padKontrol and Ableton Live. What I did was load up the padKontrol editor, load up factory default and selected GURU. Once I did that and uploaded it to the pK the default drum cells matched the pads on the pK.

Mike

[Yikes]

Thanks. I looked at the Note ON assignments for GURU as you suggest, but they actually increase the offset between pK and NI Battery3 by yet another octave.

EXAMPLE: GURU pad #1 is C3. Battery cell #1 is C1. Instead of the pK being one octave high, GURU makes it two octaves high unless I'm getting something backwards...

I'm glad it works for you in Ableton. I'm using Acid Pro 7, which does a lot of things "its own way". Very different from Ableton. I just went ahead and programmed my own custom scenes for Battery3, as the KORG #17 Battery scene data didn't match the blank Battery cell matrix (not sure why).

Thanks for your comments

[darkenedsoul]

Hi,

Well, as you saw all the different scenes there should be one that defaults to the MIDI notes to match up with Battery 3. What I did with Battery 3 (I have Komplete 2, 4 and 5) is just use the pK editor, load GURU and load up a Drum Rack in Ableton and the cells matched up just right. If you are happier with Battery then again, load up Factory and click on each of the scenes to see if one maps out to the C1 and beyond notes. I think you may find one that does. At least you found the transpose stuff in Battery 3

Mike

[Yikes]

Hey, Mike.

You're lucky. Acid 7 doesn't have anything like a drum rack. I just load Battery as a VST synth, and can set up individual busses for Battery's stereo pairs if needed. I sure hope Sony will try to catch up with Ableton in the next version (dammit).

I'm new to both pK and Battery. I'm "thrashing about" in the Battery3 demo and Kore2 demo before commiting to purchase of Komplete6 and Kore2 software-only version (I have a nanoKontrol on its way from Amazon [$55.16 and FREE shipping] to use as a control surface for Kore. Intend to use the pK X/Y pad to control the Kore Morphing Grid, and padKontrol buttons and knobs for Kore2 virtual buttons and knobs. I've been making a nuisance of myself on the NI Kore forum <grin> and have concluded this'll work extremely well. And the nanoKontrol will work with my DAW and all the Komplete apps too (or so it seems). Woohoo!

As for Battery cell matrix vs padKontrol data scenes:
I expect to build kits in Battery based on an 8x4 matrix, because I'm no drummer and will probably keep things fairly simple at first. All the pK prebuilt scenes are 4x4. I figure the best way to accommodate an 8x4 Battery matrix is to build two 4x4 scenes. You probably already know all this, but I'll post for the benefit of other readers. Here's what I did:

1) In Battery3, select menu item FILE > New Kit. Then Edit > Matrix Size > 8x4.

2) Select any cell. Go to the Cell tab at bottom of UI and click inside the Key Range setting box. That displays the Key Range for each cell in its bottom right corner.

3) Create a pK data scene in padKontrol Editor Librarian that mirrors the Midi Note ON assignments (Key Range values) for the cells in columns 1,2,3,4 of the 8x4 Battery cell matrix (the left half of the matrix). VERY IMPORTANT: The values you assign to the pK pads must be one octave HIGHER than the Battery cell Key Range values. So if a Battery cell = C2, your corresponding pK pad must = C3. Save the scene data as a file to your HDD.

4) Create a second pK data scene in padKontrol Editor Librarian for the cells in columns 5,6,7,8 of the 8x4 Battery cell matrix (the right half of the matrix). Remember, pK pad value must be +1 octave compared to Battery cell value. Save it HDD.

5) Transmit those data scenes to your pK and you're up and running. Just switch between scenes depending on which half of the Battery matrix a particular instrument is on.

[darkenedsoul]

Well it seems you have things figured out for what you want to do with regards to workflow, etc. I was debating on getting a NanoControl BUT after reading some stuff (mainly I think towards the nanoPad) was that they aren't too rugged. Not that I need something super sturdy lol. I ended up getting the Akai LPD8 which has 8 pads and 8 knobs for twiddling stuff in effects/etc instead. It also has 4 presets where you can program each scenes drum note and knob CC's to different values and save as a preset. So hit Program, press Pad 1, now I have 8 pads assigned to 8 notes and 8 knobs CC1-8, press program, Pad 2, another 8 pads to different notes and CC-9-16, on up to the 4th preset. So it works out ok for what I am doing.

The padKontrol was purchase a couple yrs ago now for doing drum stuff for my project(s) for percussion. I am mainly wanting Bass drum, Timpanis', crash/china/cymbals of some sorts as well as Snare (flam/rolls perhaps). I may get Big Fish Audio sample sets as they have 2-3 I am looking at seriously getting down the road (one ambient, 2 percussion ones).

Best of luck with it. I hope you have better luck than some have had with the Nano series. I still may get a nanoControl though as they are cheap enough.

And I don't forsee Sony getting Acid up to anything like Live as the more I (finally) delve down into it, it's unreal, the mixing part is awesome when you have a Drum Rack as it opens up like a mixer so you can tweak each channels audio, etc...I used to use Acid 4 way back and it had crap support for VST/VSTi and it's MIDI stuff was lacking if I recall. One thing Live does need is Bezier curves as that was very useful in Acid between clips/tracks for doing fades between tracks. Live I believe only does it in the same track for crossfading still. It's a feature that I believe is still highly wanted (the way Acid does it). I don't think it can be done in Live 8.x still.

Mike

[Yikes]

As I learn, I'm beginning to see limitations in Acid. I used to record on open reel tape machines, so that's what makes sense to me intially. Acid 7, with it's new Mixer window sealed the deal for me. It's like an endlessly expandable version of the console I used to dream of, but could never afford...and with unbelievable automation, too!

I've been editing in Sony Sound Forge forever, and bought into Vegas Pro 9 due to Sony's end-of-year 2009 "super deal". My head hurts from trying to learn all this (and it might just explode from adding the NI apps too, LOL!) The Sony Pro apps have very similar UIs and operate the same in many respects, so that's a big plus in my case. It looks like I'll be using Acid at least until I see what improvements the next version brings. By then I'll be up to speed enough to know whether a change to Ableton is worthwhile.

Also, I looked at that LPD8. Like you, I thought it was a better quality build, but the nanoK has 9 faders, 9 knobs and 18 programmable buttons (and 4 scenes)! Couldn't pass it up. I really like the quality of my new padKontrol so I'm hoping the nanoK reflects a similar build. I've read good things about the nanoK and have seen a few online vid reviews that say it's a STEAL at $60. I'm careful with my stuff, and it's strictly in-studio, so I'm hoping it works out well.

Good luck to you too, and thanks for the helpful comments.

[darkenedsoul]

Yeah, the Nano's are a steal at $60 at a local GC store. Daddy's Junky Music is $70 (could have gotten the LPD8 for $60 but didn't feel like driving the half hour + to get there so paid $70 for it). And yeah, it has an extra knob/slider on it = nice to have. I may get one later but for now I'll stick with what I have and read up more on Ableton (been using it for some time now but never got really deep into it and it can do a LOT of stuff, especially after I finally did some manual reading LOL.

Mike

[Yikes]

Mike wrote: "I'll stick with what I have and read up more on Ableton (been using it for some time now but never got really deep into it and it can do a LOT of stuff, especially after I finally did some manual reading LOL"

I hear ya, bro. But I HATE reading manuals and Help files. It's like a bullet between the eyes for me.

I couldn't find ANY books on Acid 7 or any serious online user forums. Kinda bites now that I'm so invested. What I did find was a really good book on Acid Pro 6 by a company called Course Technology PTR. They publish the "POWER!" series, many of which are used as text books. Here's a LINK to their Ableton Live 8 POWER! book.

And here's a LINK to the same book at Amazon for a lot less, and free shipping.

I've been using Sound Forge for about a decade. Bought the Course Technology PTR book on SF8 (I'm using v9) and am expanding my understanding by about 500%. EXCELLENT book. I'm reading it cover to cover, but I'm also using it as a reference book - to look up how to do this or that as the need arises.

The other thing that really helps me is video tutorials. To SEE someone do it is a lot easier/quicker than reading about it. It's like reading a book on how to play the violin. LOL!