MIDI help please !

Discussion relating to the Korg M50 Workstation.

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Krog
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MIDI help please !

Post by Krog »

Hi all,

Just a simple question from a 'hobbyist' musician about MIDI.
I have an M50 and an Electribe and I want to connect them via MIDI purely to sync the sequencers.
Nothing more, nothing less.
If its not already obvious I should point out that I am a complete MIDI noob :)

Straight out of the box, if I connect the two together the Electribe seems to be triggering sounds from the M50.

Is there a simple.....and I emphasise SIMPLE....way of setting the two up just to sync the clocks on the sequencers.

If anyone can help I would appreciate it.

Cheers,
Krog.
Korg : Electribe MX-1, Microsampler, Kaoss Pad Quad
Yamaha : RM1X
Roland : MC-303
Teenage Engineering : OP-1
Other : Samson Carbon 61 Midi Keys
Apps : iKaossilator, iElectribe, iElectribe Gorillaz Edition, iMS20, iPolySix, ReBirth, Figure, Nanostudio, Animoog, Funkbox
DAW : Logic, Maschine
Studio : Behringer Xenyx 1002FX, Behringer MS40 Monitors.
Past : M50, Microkorg, Kaossilator Pro, Korg Micro-X, Kaosillator, Roland SH-101, Mattel Synsonic Drums, Casio VL Tone, Casio MT-30, Casio SK-1, Yamaha SY55, Roland TR-505
http://www.youtube.com/Krog360
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X-Trade
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Post by X-Trade »

Yes.

There are two steps to make if you want a robust approach.

Each device will have a MIDI Filter in the global settings - where you can set which MIDI messages it responds to.

So the one that you have receiving clock from the other (You only need one MIDI cable to sync - going from the master's Out to the slave's In) you could set so that it doesn't respond to any other MIDI messages. I think Clock is handled separately so you can just untick everything.

The second thing to do would be to set the receiving device to EXT clock (external). There should be a setting again in the global parameters for clock source, which can be Int., Ext., or Auto.

They will both transmit clock by default, unless they are set to be receiving clock from something else.



I suggest you sync the Electribe as the slave because altering the MIDI filter settings on the M50 will affect the USB MIDI connection and thus the software editor too. Obviously if you use neither the USB or Software editor, and you don't intend on using any other controller to control your M50 at the same time, then it doesn't matter.

Remember you have to write changes to settings in Global mode just as if you were editing a Program or Combi. The same goes for the Electribe.
Current Gear: Kronos 61, RADIAS-R, Volca Bass, ESX-1, microKorg, MS2000B, R3, Kaossilator Pro +, MiniKP, AX3000B, nanoKontrol, nanoPad MK II,
Other Mfgrs: Moog Sub37, Roland Boutique JX03, Novation MiniNova, Akai APC40, MOTU MIDI TimePiece 2, ART Pro VLA, Focusrite Saffire Pro 40.
Past Gear: Korg Karma, TR61, Poly800, EA-1, ER-1, ES-1, Kawai K1, Novation ReMote37SL, Boss GT-6B
Software: NI Komplete 10 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, Ableton Live 9. Apple OSX El Capitan on 15" MacBook Pro
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Krog
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Post by Krog »

@X-Trade

Many thanks for the reply.
The theory of what you say is completely understandable, but, the method of doing that between two devices (even ones made by the same manufacturer) is obviously something not designed for the hobbyist musician.

Whoever designs the UI for these machines clearly enjoys making them as unintuitive as is humanly possible !

MIDI seems to be a bit of a 'black-art' in that those who understand it revel in its glory whilst the rest of us (most of whom seem to remain quiet about it) scratch our heads in despair !

I guess I was simply looking for a 'plug-and-play' process which sadly seems to be a concept that is alien to MIDI.

Oh well, I guess the M50 will have to go back in its box or into the small ads of a music magazine cus' I'm just not going to be able to use its full potential without a degree in MIDI implementation :(

Anyway, thanks for trying.

Cheers,

Krog
Korg : Electribe MX-1, Microsampler, Kaoss Pad Quad
Yamaha : RM1X
Roland : MC-303
Teenage Engineering : OP-1
Other : Samson Carbon 61 Midi Keys
Apps : iKaossilator, iElectribe, iElectribe Gorillaz Edition, iMS20, iPolySix, ReBirth, Figure, Nanostudio, Animoog, Funkbox
DAW : Logic, Maschine
Studio : Behringer Xenyx 1002FX, Behringer MS40 Monitors.
Past : M50, Microkorg, Kaossilator Pro, Korg Micro-X, Kaosillator, Roland SH-101, Mattel Synsonic Drums, Casio VL Tone, Casio MT-30, Casio SK-1, Yamaha SY55, Roland TR-505
http://www.youtube.com/Krog360
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mocando
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Post by mocando »

Krog, my personal experience with MIDI is similar to yours, although, all it takes is a bit of patience, some reading and trial and error. There is not such thing as a MIDI degree to be able to handle it. It supposed to be a standard for musicians, not for engineers. So I recommend you to have a bit of patience, ask all the questions you want here that people like X-Trade and myself are always willing to help.
Martin Ocando

Korg Gear: Wavestation
Korg Software: KLC Wavestation, iWavestation for iPad
Non Korg: M-Audio Code 61 MIDI Controller, Nektar GX49 MIDI Controller
Music Computing: 16in Macbook Pro with Touch Bar Mid 2019, i9 32GB RAM 2TB Flash, MacOS Catalina - 2019 iPad Air 64GB
Software: Apple MainStage, Arturia V Collection 7, Arturia OB-Xa V
Visit: <a href="http://korgfans.wordpress.com">Synth Fans :: Everything Synths</a> Twitter: <a href="http://twitter.com/korgfans">@korgfans</a>
jerryv
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Post by jerryv »

Krog ... everything is simple if you know how to do it. You're giving up too soon.

I agree that the way different manufacturers handle the gritty details leave a lot to be desired ... a universal method would be far easier. But alas, that's not how it is. The more you learn about MIDI the easier it will be to adapt to those differences ..

Hang in there. Do some reading. Study both devices.
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X-Trade
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Post by X-Trade »

you seem very quick to quit on this...

If you ask me, the only reason most people aren't able to do something is because they don't bother to actually try. If you're going to spend money on a piece of equipment, you should at least put some effort into trying to figure out how to use it.



For a start, in any KORG device, overall MIDI settings that affect the operation of the whole device can be found in Global mode.

I believe if you press 'page select' in Global mode, then you'll find there is an entire page called MIDI, where the parameters you need are clearly laid out in front of you. But as I said you don't need to do anything on the M50.

The steps for the electribe really depend on which one you have. On my ER-1 and ES-1 mkII the steps are more or less the identical: Press the Global button, press the down arrow button to get to 'Clock', Turn the wheel to get EXT or whatever it abbreviates 'auto' as.
Press 'Write'. That will get the electribe listening to the M50's clock.

The next thing to do would be to make sure that the electribe's parts are set to a different MIDI channel to the M50's global channel (generally defaults to 1), or set the MIDI filter so that it doesn't respond to any notes, controllers, etc. That isn't much more complicated than changing the global mode.
Current Gear: Kronos 61, RADIAS-R, Volca Bass, ESX-1, microKorg, MS2000B, R3, Kaossilator Pro +, MiniKP, AX3000B, nanoKontrol, nanoPad MK II,
Other Mfgrs: Moog Sub37, Roland Boutique JX03, Novation MiniNova, Akai APC40, MOTU MIDI TimePiece 2, ART Pro VLA, Focusrite Saffire Pro 40.
Past Gear: Korg Karma, TR61, Poly800, EA-1, ER-1, ES-1, Kawai K1, Novation ReMote37SL, Boss GT-6B
Software: NI Komplete 10 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, Ableton Live 9. Apple OSX El Capitan on 15" MacBook Pro
kanthos
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Post by kanthos »

You wouldn't take a synth back to the store because you don't know subtractive synthesis and don't like all the factory presets, would you? MIDI is the same kind of thing; it takes a bit of learning but it's not very hard, and since there's nothing subjective about it (it's not like MIDI data sounds 'good' or 'bad', either the MIDI messages one device sends to another are as you want them to be or they are not), it's much easier to get a basic working knowledge of MIDI connections than it is of synthesis.
Keyboard Rig: Korg Kronos, Moog Sub 37, Waldorf Blofeld Module, Neo Instruments Ventilator II, Moog MiniFooger Delay, Strymon BigSky, Roland KC-150, Mackie 802-VLZ4 Mixer
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Krog
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Post by Krog »

All,

Thanks for all your calm, sensible, replies :)

Sadly, I have not been blessed with much in the way of patience for dealing with things like this and the old teddy tends to be launched out of the pram rather prematurely.

I will take your good advice and try to work through my set-up a little more methodically and see where that leads me.

Sounds like a dose of trial and error followed by a spoonfull of suck it and see, is what is required to cure my malaise :)

Thanks again,
I'll post again if/when I get some success !

Cheers,
Krog
Korg : Electribe MX-1, Microsampler, Kaoss Pad Quad
Yamaha : RM1X
Roland : MC-303
Teenage Engineering : OP-1
Other : Samson Carbon 61 Midi Keys
Apps : iKaossilator, iElectribe, iElectribe Gorillaz Edition, iMS20, iPolySix, ReBirth, Figure, Nanostudio, Animoog, Funkbox
DAW : Logic, Maschine
Studio : Behringer Xenyx 1002FX, Behringer MS40 Monitors.
Past : M50, Microkorg, Kaossilator Pro, Korg Micro-X, Kaosillator, Roland SH-101, Mattel Synsonic Drums, Casio VL Tone, Casio MT-30, Casio SK-1, Yamaha SY55, Roland TR-505
http://www.youtube.com/Krog360
kanthos
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Post by kanthos »

I'll help you out a bit with a quick overview of all the MIDI you'll probably need to know.



Channels: Any MIDI message is sent on a specific MIDI channel, from 1 to 16. Think of it like having 16 phone lines in your house. All phone calls must come on exactly one channel. If you are standing beside phone number 4 (i.e. channel 4), the person calling you needs to use channel 4 as well, or you won't get their message. Some devices can send or, more commonly, receive on all channels. A message sent on multiple channels really means that two messages are sent out: remember, one message uses exactly one channel.

Message Types: You typically don't need to know how a message is formed or what the parts are, but here are the common types of messages.

Note On/Note Off: Has the note number and velocity. On Korg keyboards, note 0 is C-1 and note 127 is G9.

Program Change: A message telling a MIDI device to switch presets. Programs range from 0-127 (some devices will label them as 1-128). You can use a program change to change the current combi or program on your M50, within the current bank (so if you're in bank C, PC 5 will change to program C-005; there is no way to use a program change to switch banks).

Bank Change: Sometimes combined with a program change, this also switches banks (so you could change from some program in bank C to program B-005).

Aftertouch: The M50 doesn't have this, but it's a measure of the pressure you place on the keys after initially pressing them.

Pitch Bend: This one at least should be pretty obvious ;)

Control Change: MIDI assigns a specific number to various controls, and most keyboards let you assign different numbers to some of the physical controls. For example, a sustain pedal always uses CC #64 and the mod wheel always uses CC #1. It's not good enough though to know that you've moved your mod wheel; the message also has to indicate the position of the wheel, between 0 and 127. Some controls may only send 'on' and 'off' messages, like the sustain pedal, and they'll send values of 127 and 0 typically.




Ok, so what does this mean for your setup?

Well, firstly, you need the M50 to send clock messages to the Electribe on a channel the Electribe is listening to. If you know that you *never* want the M50 to control the Electribe, then you can leave both global channels as they are (they're both probably 1 right now) and follow what X-Trade said about filters. The idea is that the filter makes the Electribe ignore a particular type of message, so you'll have to filter out all the types you don't care about. The clock messages might be categorized under System or Realtime or something similar, so you don't want to filter out that type, of course.


On the other hand, you may decide that at some point you might want the option of controlling the Electribe with the M50's keyboard and other controls. If so, you'll have to do things a bit differently. I'd recommend taking this latter approach, but I won't describe it unless you're interested, to avoid giving you too much detail right now.

Hope this helps!
Keyboard Rig: Korg Kronos, Moog Sub 37, Waldorf Blofeld Module, Neo Instruments Ventilator II, Moog MiniFooger Delay, Strymon BigSky, Roland KC-150, Mackie 802-VLZ4 Mixer
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X-Trade
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Post by X-Trade »

The reason I mentioned both changing the channel or using the filter was that I noticed my ES-1 doesn't have a MIDI filter, so changing the channel was the only solution.

It really depends on which electribe you have, but I'm guessing you have a newer E_X model?
Current Gear: Kronos 61, RADIAS-R, Volca Bass, ESX-1, microKorg, MS2000B, R3, Kaossilator Pro +, MiniKP, AX3000B, nanoKontrol, nanoPad MK II,
Other Mfgrs: Moog Sub37, Roland Boutique JX03, Novation MiniNova, Akai APC40, MOTU MIDI TimePiece 2, ART Pro VLA, Focusrite Saffire Pro 40.
Past Gear: Korg Karma, TR61, Poly800, EA-1, ER-1, ES-1, Kawai K1, Novation ReMote37SL, Boss GT-6B
Software: NI Komplete 10 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, Ableton Live 9. Apple OSX El Capitan on 15" MacBook Pro
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mocando
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Post by mocando »

See what I meant? People here just loves to help. Your only task is, well, to ask for it. :wink:
Martin Ocando

Korg Gear: Wavestation
Korg Software: KLC Wavestation, iWavestation for iPad
Non Korg: M-Audio Code 61 MIDI Controller, Nektar GX49 MIDI Controller
Music Computing: 16in Macbook Pro with Touch Bar Mid 2019, i9 32GB RAM 2TB Flash, MacOS Catalina - 2019 iPad Air 64GB
Software: Apple MainStage, Arturia V Collection 7, Arturia OB-Xa V
Visit: <a href="http://korgfans.wordpress.com">Synth Fans :: Everything Synths</a> Twitter: <a href="http://twitter.com/korgfans">@korgfans</a>
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Krog
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Post by Krog »

Once again people many thanks for your comments and help.

I should have a good few hours spare over the weekend to really knuckle down and try and get my set-up sorted.

I know some of you may not have my exact set-up and so I wont ask for a step by step guide but I will ask a question based on what I want to do with my gear !

Basically, I want the Electribe and M50 to work together in terms of their sequencers. That means that I want to program the Electribe with its own sounds and I also want to program the M50 using its sounds and then play them both together, hopefully creating a nice rich envelope of 'noise' :D

So, the workflow that I am imagining is to initially get a pattern into the Electribe. Ideally, I would then like to start recording on the M50's sequencer and when pressing start on the M50 to start recording, it would automatically trigger the Electribe as a sort of backing track !!!

Hope that makes sense :?

Anyway, should that be possible ? It just sounds like a basic syncing set-up to me.

Thanks again,

Krog.
Korg : Electribe MX-1, Microsampler, Kaoss Pad Quad
Yamaha : RM1X
Roland : MC-303
Teenage Engineering : OP-1
Other : Samson Carbon 61 Midi Keys
Apps : iKaossilator, iElectribe, iElectribe Gorillaz Edition, iMS20, iPolySix, ReBirth, Figure, Nanostudio, Animoog, Funkbox
DAW : Logic, Maschine
Studio : Behringer Xenyx 1002FX, Behringer MS40 Monitors.
Past : M50, Microkorg, Kaossilator Pro, Korg Micro-X, Kaosillator, Roland SH-101, Mattel Synsonic Drums, Casio VL Tone, Casio MT-30, Casio SK-1, Yamaha SY55, Roland TR-505
http://www.youtube.com/Krog360
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X-Trade
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Post by X-Trade »

Yes, that is a good target setup. That is how I'm using my ES-1 and occasionally ER-1 with my KARMA. Starting the sequencer on the KARMA will start the Electribes rolling in perfect sync.
Current Gear: Kronos 61, RADIAS-R, Volca Bass, ESX-1, microKorg, MS2000B, R3, Kaossilator Pro +, MiniKP, AX3000B, nanoKontrol, nanoPad MK II,
Other Mfgrs: Moog Sub37, Roland Boutique JX03, Novation MiniNova, Akai APC40, MOTU MIDI TimePiece 2, ART Pro VLA, Focusrite Saffire Pro 40.
Past Gear: Korg Karma, TR61, Poly800, EA-1, ER-1, ES-1, Kawai K1, Novation ReMote37SL, Boss GT-6B
Software: NI Komplete 10 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, Ableton Live 9. Apple OSX El Capitan on 15" MacBook Pro
kanthos
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Post by kanthos »

You'll want to change the tracks in your sequence on the M50 to be of type EXT if they're going to control the Electribe, and make sure that the MIDI channel(s) of those tracks are the channel(s) that the Electribe is receiving on. Any MIDI data you record onto those tracks will then be sent to the Electribe.
Keyboard Rig: Korg Kronos, Moog Sub 37, Waldorf Blofeld Module, Neo Instruments Ventilator II, Moog MiniFooger Delay, Strymon BigSky, Roland KC-150, Mackie 802-VLZ4 Mixer
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Krog
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Post by Krog »

Update :

Thanks to the helpful advice I have been given on this forum I have had (for me) a major success!

I have got the M50 & Electribe synced such that starting the M50 sequencer triggers the Electribe pattern.

I now understand that the Electribe parts occupy five MIDI channels which need to be different from the MIDI channels that the M50 sequencer parts occupy.

I've still not quite cracked getting the M50 to record whilst triggering/playing a pattern on the Electribe but this recent success has given me the confidence to keep trying!

Cheers,
Krog.
Korg : Electribe MX-1, Microsampler, Kaoss Pad Quad
Yamaha : RM1X
Roland : MC-303
Teenage Engineering : OP-1
Other : Samson Carbon 61 Midi Keys
Apps : iKaossilator, iElectribe, iElectribe Gorillaz Edition, iMS20, iPolySix, ReBirth, Figure, Nanostudio, Animoog, Funkbox
DAW : Logic, Maschine
Studio : Behringer Xenyx 1002FX, Behringer MS40 Monitors.
Past : M50, Microkorg, Kaossilator Pro, Korg Micro-X, Kaosillator, Roland SH-101, Mattel Synsonic Drums, Casio VL Tone, Casio MT-30, Casio SK-1, Yamaha SY55, Roland TR-505
http://www.youtube.com/Krog360
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