Hi all,
I hope someone can help me out here. I've looked around a lot on the Ableton en Korg forum but cannot seem to find the answer.
My question:
I want to sync my Kaossilator Pro with Ableton Live and the best/most stable way.
I tried something with a midi cable hooked up with Motu UltraLite-mk3 Hybrid audio interface (midi-out) to my Kaossilator Pro (midi in) but cannot get it to work at all. There is no BPM sync (Ableton Live is the master).
Anyone has any ideas?
Thanks and kind regards,
Roel
SIMPLE SYNC KAOSSILATOR PRO WITH ABLETON LIVE
Moderators: Sharp, X-Trade, Pepperpotty, karmathanever
Copied from a previous reply ......
'I may not be 100% correct on this, but I think that when hooked to a computer the only thing synced is the tempo. The triggering of the loop banks/start of your loops are not synced. The manual mentions that you can send touch pad on/off messages via cc number. It also states that there are note on/off messages that can be sent for the loop bank buttons. However, I don't think that will turn them on and off? Since even in 'normal' mode the loop bank buttons actually send midi note data to external devices. I haven't tested this theory, so perhaps someone can shed some light on it.'
Is that what you were wondering?
'I may not be 100% correct on this, but I think that when hooked to a computer the only thing synced is the tempo. The triggering of the loop banks/start of your loops are not synced. The manual mentions that you can send touch pad on/off messages via cc number. It also states that there are note on/off messages that can be sent for the loop bank buttons. However, I don't think that will turn them on and off? Since even in 'normal' mode the loop bank buttons actually send midi note data to external devices. I haven't tested this theory, so perhaps someone can shed some light on it.'
Is that what you were wondering?
The problem is that the KP3 and the Kaossilator Pro are not designed to sync up with external gear. They are designed to keep their own loops in sync with each other. This is not really a failure with the design, because it's the nature of what they do. Audio looping is not the same as midi looping. With a midi looper like Ableton, it has a midi score that triggers small samples or synth notes, so that it can change the tempo without much problem because the notes can simply be fired more quickly since the "dead" time between the notes simply doesn't exist except as a measurement of time.
An audio looper only has the sampled audio to work with, so increasing or decreasing the tempo is a much more difficult problem. If the tempo increases, you can't just push the audio together and slice out the time between the notes, even though the audio can be pitch corrected, you HAVE to lose something when you try to play 20 seconds of audio in 18 seconds. You also have a problem with audio looping when increasing the tempo because you can't just insert dead time to stretch 20 seconds of audio over 22 seconds.
To properly do audio looping, you really need to manually slice the samples into snippets/individual beats that can be played back faster or slower by converting/deleting audio dead time into midi/score rests between the audio. This can be hard to do manually to get a glitch free result, particularly if the track contains continuous music with no clean space to slice.
The KP3/Kaossilator Pro do a pretty admirable job doing a virtually impossible task to get right. So mostly you've got to understand the limitations with audio looping and work with them to get clean loops. Usually this means bringing the samples and loops into the computer to edit them visually so that the loop points are normalized so that you don't get clicks/pops.
A sampled drum track is usually much easier to slice than a song with no breaks in the audio. The KP3/KPro have no clue what the audio contains - audio is just a bucket of bits. The beat detection is just using a threshold on the audio level to guess where the beats are - which is used to set the BPM, but often it guesses wrong if there isn't a clear and consistent level to identify the beat. Sending midi clock to the KP3/KPro only sets the BPM, but it doesn't fix the inherent problem with adjusting the audio to precisely sync to the beat.
Ableton has individual midi tracks for each instrument, so in that respect, it can just trigger the notes faster and it all works out. The KP3/KPro can't do that.
An audio looper only has the sampled audio to work with, so increasing or decreasing the tempo is a much more difficult problem. If the tempo increases, you can't just push the audio together and slice out the time between the notes, even though the audio can be pitch corrected, you HAVE to lose something when you try to play 20 seconds of audio in 18 seconds. You also have a problem with audio looping when increasing the tempo because you can't just insert dead time to stretch 20 seconds of audio over 22 seconds.
To properly do audio looping, you really need to manually slice the samples into snippets/individual beats that can be played back faster or slower by converting/deleting audio dead time into midi/score rests between the audio. This can be hard to do manually to get a glitch free result, particularly if the track contains continuous music with no clean space to slice.
The KP3/Kaossilator Pro do a pretty admirable job doing a virtually impossible task to get right. So mostly you've got to understand the limitations with audio looping and work with them to get clean loops. Usually this means bringing the samples and loops into the computer to edit them visually so that the loop points are normalized so that you don't get clicks/pops.
A sampled drum track is usually much easier to slice than a song with no breaks in the audio. The KP3/KPro have no clue what the audio contains - audio is just a bucket of bits. The beat detection is just using a threshold on the audio level to guess where the beats are - which is used to set the BPM, but often it guesses wrong if there isn't a clear and consistent level to identify the beat. Sending midi clock to the KP3/KPro only sets the BPM, but it doesn't fix the inherent problem with adjusting the audio to precisely sync to the beat.
Ableton has individual midi tracks for each instrument, so in that respect, it can just trigger the notes faster and it all works out. The KP3/KPro can't do that.
I just want to sync the tempo (BPM) in the Kaossilator pro.
So for example if I want to use the build in drumloops (which are playing well if I change the BPM/tempo manually on the Kaossiltaor) that these drumloops are being played in the correct BPM (of the Ableton master BPM).
@Antret: you said: "...but I think that when hooked to a computer the only thing synced is the tempo"
That's exactly my question. How can this be done, so:
- if best is using USB, which configuration settings to be used in Ableton Live and on the Kaossiltaor Pro (or with the Kaossiltaor Editor)
- if best is using midi: which configuration settings to be used in Ableton Live and on the Kaossiltaor Pro (or with the Kaossiltaor Editor)
If somebody got this to work and can help me out here, that would be great!!
Thanks all
So for example if I want to use the build in drumloops (which are playing well if I change the BPM/tempo manually on the Kaossiltaor) that these drumloops are being played in the correct BPM (of the Ableton master BPM).
@Antret: you said: "...but I think that when hooked to a computer the only thing synced is the tempo"
That's exactly my question. How can this be done, so:
- if best is using USB, which configuration settings to be used in Ableton Live and on the Kaossiltaor Pro (or with the Kaossiltaor Editor)
- if best is using midi: which configuration settings to be used in Ableton Live and on the Kaossiltaor Pro (or with the Kaossiltaor Editor)
If somebody got this to work and can help me out here, that would be great!!
Thanks all
Only because syncing audio is a shitty problem.
The KP3/KPro do fine keeping audio sampled to different internal tracks synced together if they were recorded in sync. Think of them as 4 tape loops where the tape has holes with splined gears to prevent slipping. A tape machine can keep the loops synced together very easily. Keeping the audio recorded on the tape synced with the audio of other gear is a different and much more difficult problem. On the KP3, the length of the loop is based strictly on the BPM and the # of beats when the loop is recorded.
If you use the KP3 editor to view the sample, it's easier to see the nature of the syncing problem. Record a beat to pad1. Examine the sample. You'll usually see a gap of dead space at the beginning of the sample. While that pad is looping, record another sample to pad 2 that sounds nicely in sync with pad 1. Example the sample, and you should see a similar gap, and the waveforms on pad1 and pad2 should match rather closely across the whole sample. So the KP3 can keep pad 1 and pad 2 synced to each other. The problem is that any external gear won't have that gap. That gap will vary based on when you press the sample button relative to the beat.
So one of the first things I do after recording the samples on the KP3 is to move them to the computer to edit them to normalize them by trimming any leading gap and to be sure that the start/end of the loop have the same level, so that there will be no click/pop at the loop point. Then I move them back to the KP3 or to the flash card. That makes it much easier to keep the KP3 in sync with external gear if you hit the pad precisely on the beat, since there is no delay that requires compensation. Then I keep everything at the same BPM.
Another option is to use the KP3 as the only device that keeps the music in sync, then cueing up external gear by beat matching to the KP3 like a DJ. If you've got a headphone CUE, like on all DJ mixers, then it's not too hard to get the external gear synced up to the KP3 to prepare for sampling it. The audience hears none of this cueing, only the final result that's in sync.
The KP3/KPro do fine keeping audio sampled to different internal tracks synced together if they were recorded in sync. Think of them as 4 tape loops where the tape has holes with splined gears to prevent slipping. A tape machine can keep the loops synced together very easily. Keeping the audio recorded on the tape synced with the audio of other gear is a different and much more difficult problem. On the KP3, the length of the loop is based strictly on the BPM and the # of beats when the loop is recorded.
If you use the KP3 editor to view the sample, it's easier to see the nature of the syncing problem. Record a beat to pad1. Examine the sample. You'll usually see a gap of dead space at the beginning of the sample. While that pad is looping, record another sample to pad 2 that sounds nicely in sync with pad 1. Example the sample, and you should see a similar gap, and the waveforms on pad1 and pad2 should match rather closely across the whole sample. So the KP3 can keep pad 1 and pad 2 synced to each other. The problem is that any external gear won't have that gap. That gap will vary based on when you press the sample button relative to the beat.
So one of the first things I do after recording the samples on the KP3 is to move them to the computer to edit them to normalize them by trimming any leading gap and to be sure that the start/end of the loop have the same level, so that there will be no click/pop at the loop point. Then I move them back to the KP3 or to the flash card. That makes it much easier to keep the KP3 in sync with external gear if you hit the pad precisely on the beat, since there is no delay that requires compensation. Then I keep everything at the same BPM.
Another option is to use the KP3 as the only device that keeps the music in sync, then cueing up external gear by beat matching to the KP3 like a DJ. If you've got a headphone CUE, like on all DJ mixers, then it's not too hard to get the external gear synced up to the KP3 to prepare for sampling it. The audience hears none of this cueing, only the final result that's in sync.
The first thing you need to do is load the korg midi driver. In ableton, the kopro will appear in the list of midi devices under the midi/sync tab (i believe thats what it is called). If it is there, I think the only setting you need to make is on the KoPro itself. There are options (read the manual here) for making the KoPro sync to external midi clock. It basically works the same way whether you use usb midi, or the actual midi jacks. I may have missed a step here, but it is very close to this.roteeuwen wrote:
@Antret: you said: "...but I think that when hooked to a computer the only thing synced is the tempo"
That's exactly my question. How can this be done, so:
- if best is using USB, which configuration settings to be used in Ableton Live and on the Kaossiltaor Pro (or with the Kaossiltaor Editor)
- if best is using midi: which configuration settings to be used in Ableton Live and on the Kaossiltaor Pro (or with the Kaossiltaor Editor)
If somebody got this to work and can help me out here, that would be great!!
Thanks all
I'm not.q72xR4 wrote:I think I've gotten around the sync problem for my purposes, but how are you guys using Ableton to trigger the samples banks? I can't get it to work.
That was the part I was hazy on myself. It doesn't do that 'automatically'. As I mentioned above my theory is that you can send a 'note on' message from ableton to the KoPro bank in question. The manual has the data needed for this (the CC#). I haven't tried it yet though, so I can't be sure if that will work........Hi Antret. thanks for you reply.
I'll try to load the Korg Midi drivers on my Macbook Pro (it already shows by default the korg midi drivers?).
I maybe stupid but how can I set the Chaossilator Pro itself to sync with external midi clock? You refer to the manual but cannot seem to find it..
Thanks man!
Roel
I'll try to load the Korg Midi drivers on my Macbook Pro (it already shows by default the korg midi drivers?).
I maybe stupid but how can I set the Chaossilator Pro itself to sync with external midi clock? You refer to the manual but cannot seem to find it..
Thanks man!
Roel
I was thinking the same thing Mr36...
When I get out board gear I really dont want the computer involved in any way. The out board gear are my instruments and are recorded into things like Ableton to save or make a CD or something like that but that's just me.
When I get out board gear I really dont want the computer involved in any way. The out board gear are my instruments and are recorded into things like Ableton to save or make a CD or something like that but that's just me.
Korg PX5d
Korg Quad
Korg KP3
Korg DS-10
Korg PadKontrol
Korg K25
Korg Monotron
Korg Electribe 2
Korg Electribe Sampler 2
Roland GK-3A
Roland GI-20
Fishman Triple Play
BC Rich Guitar
My Music
Korg Quad
Korg KP3
Korg DS-10
Korg PadKontrol
Korg K25
Korg Monotron
Korg Electribe 2
Korg Electribe Sampler 2
Roland GK-3A
Roland GI-20
Fishman Triple Play
BC Rich Guitar
My Music