Piano sound is poor through anything other than headphones..

[kc47]

When my Pa2xPro piano sounds are played through headphones or hi-fi speakers they sound great. When played through anything bigger they sound awful ("boxy...like playing in a toilet"). I've been back to the shop (and other shops for 2nd opinions) but a new pa system (SR Technology) has improved the sounds only slightly...not good enough for me to play in public. I've tweaked away at sound parameters etc. to no avail. In the end I always have to use my old Technics KN6500 which recreates the sounds heard through the 'phones perfectly. This problem doesn't seem to affect any of the other sounds such as organ, guitar, horns, strings etc. Any advice gratefully received.

[Sharp]

Hi kc47.

Are you 100% sure everything is running in stereo and that you have your keyboard channels panned and so on?

I'm only saying because I find that if I am forced to play a piano sound through a mono system, I have to actually create a Piano sound that works best for the system.

Stereo fed down into a mono system always lacks body. Take the new Bose systems for example. Yuck...!!! You send them a stereo signal and everything comes back in mono.

Kind Regards
Sharp.

[kc47]

Point taken but I never seem to have the same problem with my KN6500 which reproduces piano just as well through a mono system without any tweaking. But with the Pa2xPro and with the shop/s in attendance we checked stereo panning still without any success. A music rep passing through (who was a very good keyboardist) remarked that this was typical of a Korg piano sound! Thanks for response...any further thoughts?

[Sharp]

Ok, so you are using a mono system. Well that is a crying shame because you are not getting anywhere near the sonic quality, clarity and detail you should be getting for all your sounds. Your Technics keyboard included.

It might appear to you that the problem doesn't effect your Technics, but it does and there is also the fact that many Technics samples are mono samples slightly panned and passed through a stereo effect. So there is a loss there too even though the core sample might be mono.

In short, overall you are loosing a lot in sound quality. If you wish to continue to play like this then you will have to modify the Piano sound to the tone you require as I mentioned in my first post.

Still, no matter how well you do this a mono sound will never compare to a stereo one. You truly are loosing a completely different dimension to the sound.

remarked that this was typical of a Korg piano sound!

I could say that his remark is typical of a person who does not know what they are talking about. He should have told you everything I've just told you the day you first spoke to him.

any further thoughts?

Well you got to do what you got to do. If you wish to play in mono, then you will need to create your own Piano sound that suites what YOU feel a Piano should sound like. Every sound on your keyboard was created by top professionals listening in stereo through top end gear so everything is optimised to be heard that way. If you wish to listen in mono, then you will need to fine tune any sound you feel is swallowed up by the stereo to mono conversion.

Regards
Sharp.

[Reuben]

Hi,
Nearly all real piano samples seem to suffer from stereo phasing issues. Sometimes these are even noticeable thu a true stereo PA set up if you listen from dead centre. As Sharp said the stereo on some sounds are less noticeable because the stereo is not real.
On my Pa1x there is a definite phasing problem on some of the mid-range piano samples. The fix I found for this was to modify the piano in Sound Mode as follows:
In Osc Basic Tab tune the Pitch up +200 and Transpose -2.
Do this for the first 2 oscillators (or the first 4 if its a double strike sample).
For some reason the phasing problem vanished and its sounds nearly as good thru a mono system.
I don't know if this will work on the 2x but its worth a try.
If this doesn't work you could try it on just the Right samples (Osc 2) and you might get better results. (The reasoning behind this is that you are now using different note samles, but re-tuned back, which are unlikely to be oscillating in phase).
Hoping you might have success.
John

[kc47]

To a simpleton like me, the technical stuff is difficult so it's a steep learning curve! I ploughed through the 331 page manual and could find no reference to Osc Basic Tab! Anyway, I eventually found it via the "Sounds" button (no detailed reference to this button in the manual...bizarre). By transposing -2 and tuning up to +200 the sound has improved remarkably. I'm afraid I didn't understand your next line about the "2 or first 4 oscillators" and "double strike sample". There are additional buttons to the right in this same Osc Basic Tab window numbered 1 to 8 but I have no idea what they're for (again no reference in the manual or the on-board Help pages).
So many thanks to both Sharp and John for your enlightening help.

[Reuben]

I'm glad you are happier with the new sound. I'm no sound geek either - just done enough fiddling in Sound Mode to start to understand how things work.
In the Osc Basic Tab the dots to the right represent the number of oscillators being used for this sound so if you change something you are only changing it for this one oscillator so you need to touch the next dot to go to the next oscillator.
So a simple stereo sound would normally be using two samples Piano Left (Osc 1) and Piano Right (Osc 2). The names of the samples are visible near the top of the screen with a number next to it. (If you touch this number its possible to go to any ROM sample eg. Ac Piano L, 1 Ac Piano R, Guitar ar any other etc. but you will not need to do this for the present purposes).
If you use the dropdown menu in upper right of the screen you can choose an option to listen to the Solo oscillator you are working on. You might find you can't hear anything at all when soloing an oscillator. This is because it might be assigned to a limited velocity range such as 100-127 so you will need to play hard to hear it or open up the velocity range under the next Tab.
If the Piano you are working on has 8 oscillators my guess is that the first 4 are Left mf, Right mf, Left ff, Right ff. (This is what I meant by double strike - 2 levels of samples medium and loud). The next 2 are probably resonance effects and the others are probably some pedal off effects (guesses only as I'm only a poor Pa1x owner) but you will be able to tell by the names of the samples.
If you are modifying the sound you will only need to adjust the main piano samples (first 2 or 4 osc.)
Once you are happy with your sound you can write it to a Spare User Sound Bank via the drop down menu.
All the best,
John

[paul]

Hi kc47

Stereo fed down into a mono system always lacks body. Take the new Bose systems for example. Yuck...!!! You send them a stereo signal and everything comes back in mono.
Kind Regards
Sharp.

Hi Sharp, maybe you didnt try it out with the T1 Tone match.
I have been using the stereo piano sounds (from my pa2x pro) on the Bose L1 model 11 with the T1 Tone match (using channels 4 and 5) gave me superb sounds.)

Paul

[Sam CA]

Hi Sharp, maybe you didnt try it out with the T1 Tone match.
I have been using the stereo piano sounds (from my pa2x pro) on the Bose L1 model 11 with the T1 Tone match (using channels 4 and 5) gave me superb sounds.)

Paul

I have to agree with paul. I finally bought the L1 modell 2/double sub with tone match..tried it and loved it. For small gigs, that's all i'm going to take..for bigger gigs, i'll use it as a monitor source on the stage for musicians. Tried all the stereo materials, and I didn't notice any problem. I did use the piano sound as well. No problem at all.

[Sharp]

Hi Paul.

Yep, I know the tone match module inside out. I've had a lot of time with the system as I do sound for bands who buy new gear and want it all setup right.

The Bose system is ideal for the likes of Guitarists or any instrument that does not produce a stereo sound or the range of frequencies a keyboard does. It's a killer system indeed in this situation.

For keyboard though there is simply no getting away from that totally mono and narrow sound. Strings suffer from obvious phase problems in the mid range too which is all caused by the stereo to mono conversion of the system and the fact it has no mid range speakers.

Two bands I deal with have purcahsed a second system so that they can play in stereo again. I told them to also sell the Tone Match module and buy an unpowered Yamaha desk.

Yes, it's expensive to do this but I'm not kidding you. It sounds freaking good. This is simply how the bose system must be heard. 2 Poles and 4 bins in a true stereo setup is pure heaven.

Regards
Sharp.

[abo59]

For keyboard though there is simply no getting away from that totally mono and narrow sound. Strings suffer from obvious phase problems in the mid range too which is all caused by the stereo to mono conversion of the system and the fact it has no mid range speakers.

Of course there is.... all you need is TWO Bose systems, one for each channel.

[Sharp]

Hi abo59.

Of course there is.... all you need is TWO Bose systems, one for each channel.

Read the last two lines of my last post. I did say this already. It's money well spent too.

Regards
Sharp.

[abo59]

Read the last two lines of my last post. I did say this already.

Ohh yeah, sorry. I guess the eyes are the first things you go blind on!

[Sharp]

No worries.
Either way it is the answer and it does sound seriously good when two systems are used with an unpowered desk.

The only down side is cost as two systems would set you back quite a bit of cash. It's the way to go though if you love that Bose sound because to hear the L1's in stereo is truly awesome.

As I said, I know two bands that use them and they both have keyboard players using KORG Pa1X 61 key keyboards. You can easily hear the stereo sound, and the separation the vocals have from using stereo reverb effects. It's just bloody gorgeous.

Regards
Sharp.