Moving from DAW to Workstation: Presales Questions (M3 v XF)

[apex]

so what you're saying is that all the different monster boards all have their strengths and weaknesses??!?!?!?!?

lol... just pick one and go make music!!!!!! You can't go wrong, and you won't be disappointed either way.

especially if you don't have a workstation to compare it against.

[Jive Talking Robot]

After reading all of the Radias R versus Radias EXB threads and after seeing how I could use the M3 INs like a mixer when I am sequencing other synths, I am starting to think getting about the actual Radias Rack over the EXB. To those that own a M3 73 + Radias R combo - is there any advantage to having the Radias docked in the M3? My intention was to get the M3 61 and simply pop the Radias R in a little 10U table top rack stand... it would cost less as I don't need the extra keys. I assume the M3 sequencer would capture all of the CC data from the Radias R ala knob tweaks and turns? I don't see any reason it shouldn't, but just want to find out if there is anything I should be aware of....

BTW, I think a stylus would be a great thing to have for detailed editing on the sequencer... I am guessing others do this as well? I was thinking of picking up a bunch of cheap Nintendo DS styli for this purpose. I assume they all work the same, but you never know....

Finally, is there a PDF that lists the effects chains for each Program? I spent some time digging around the Korg site for this but couldn't locate it (but sometimes I am blind).

You folks have been GREAT with your help. I sincerely appreciate it. This is a wonderful community and I honestly wasn't expecting this little thread to get so many posts. After all the research (including reading all the complaints in the wish list thread), I really think the M3 gives me a lot of what I am after in a workstation.

Thanks!

[apex]

After reading all of the Radias R versus Radias EXB threads and after seeing how I could use the M3 INs like a mixer when I am sequencing other synths, I am starting to think getting about the actual Radias Rack over the EXB. To those that own a M3 73 + Radias R combo - is there any advantage to having the Radias docked in the M3? My intention was to get the M3 61 and simply pop the Radias R in a little 10U table top rack stand... it would cost less as I don't need the extra keys. I assume the M3 sequencer would capture all of the CC data from the Radias R ala knob tweaks and turns? I don't see any reason it shouldn't, but just want to find out if there is anything I should be aware of....

BTW, I think a stylus would be a great thing to have for detailed editing on the sequencer... I am guessing others do this as well? I was thinking of picking up a bunch of cheap Nintendo DS styli for this purpose. I assume they all work the same, but you never know....

Finally, is there a PDF that lists the effects chains for each Program? I spent some time digging around the Korg site for this but couldn't locate it (but sometimes I am blind).

You folks have been GREAT with your help. I sincerely appreciate it. This is a wonderful community and I honestly wasn't expecting this little thread to get so many posts. After all the research (including reading all the complaints in the wish list thread), I really think the M3 gives me a lot of what I am after in a workstation.

Thanks!

I've seen quite a bit of information saying that the Radias option is better though if you go with EXB because it integrates better into the sequencer/karma.... I don't think you can use the karma function with the radias rack.

[X-Trade]

it integrates better into the sequencer/karma.... I don't think you can use the karma function with the radias rack.

You can route out KARMA to any external MIDI channel.

If you set KARMA to control a timbre/track, and set that track to 'EXT' mode, then it will be transmitting the KARMA notes on that channel.

[cello]

X-trade is right - I just tried it (hadn't thought of it before) and it works.

Thanks for that info X-trade

[X-Trade]

And on the Radias if you like you can set each timbre to a different MIDI channel.

It isn't as elegent as having all the EXB programs right in the M3 without any cables or mixers, but it can work quite well. The trick is to be consistent - decide which channel(s) your Radias will always operate on. For example I reserve 11 for the global, 12-15 for timbres. So unless it is a simple song/combi using only one sound/group of timbres, I am not usually sending any notes to channel 11, only selecting the program. You do have to create a program on the Radias for each song you are working on too. I do have to disable program change on the four individual channels.
Whereas on the M3 you have up to four Radias programs in a combi, on the Rack you have up to four timbres in a program, and only one program at a time.

This is the way I work with my Karma Workstation controlling the ES-1(ch10), Radias(ch11-15), and Virus(ch16).

There is possibly another solution for the Radias, but I haven't tried it:
Set up the first program (A00/01?) to have all four timbres on a different channel, and select the timbres through program change from the workstation to those four channels. Possibly keep a master limiter or something on that program for the master FX, and the two IFX are taken across with the timbre when you select them.
I don't think you'd be able to use the more complex parts of the radias without going back to creating a new program for each song/combi you work on though. You would probably loose use of the two sequencers, arpeggiator, vocoder, envelope follower, drum timbre, etc, as they are not really accessible through MIDI.

Which takes me on to another possibility, which is to dump the Radias configuration to a track on the M3. That saves you having to take up a program slot on the Radias.

Obviously it is more complicated but in some ways more flexible than using the EXB.

[kanthos]

On the motif XS rack all programs (voices) sound the exact same in multi/performance mode (which is the same as sequence mode) as they do in voice mode. All effects are applied. I'm not sure how many inserts you get. But all settings are automatically applied from the voice (single/program) mode.

Maybe it's different for the XS Rack (but highly unlikely), but the Motif XS manual says what I said earlier. The insert effects are assigned to a voice, not to a performance or song, and you get two inserts per voice (with some of the inserts possibly using both slots, like vocoder). In performance mode (up to 4 voices), all voices have their insert effects used. In song mode, you have to choose which 8 voices will use their insert effects; the other 8 have no effects at all besides reverb, chorus, and master EQ which are applied to the final mix of all voices anyway.

The key difference with what you and I are saying is that performance mode is NOT the same as song mode. Song mode has up to 16 tracks, while performance mode has only four voices.

[ozy]

I will talk about m3, I will be concise. Hope this helps.

Patch Programming

m3 = 7/10

Sounds I Need to Sound GOOD!

Pianos = 6/10 (10 being a dedicated stage piano, not an acoustic piano) weak point of the m3 is piano.


eps = 8/10 (10/10 being Clavia and sv, not the original, of course)

'Trons, = can load samples and approach 8/10

creamy strings (both "real" and "string machine"), can load samples and use radias, get near 9/10

"Strumable" acoustic guitars : karma will take you to 8/10

funky jazz flute = I hate it, refuse to answer

Warm, punchy, “wet” vintage analog synths = buy an analogue stynth. Anyway, the radias expansion is 8/10 where clavia nord lead or virus TI is 10/10. Not bad for a workstation

The inherent limitations of a workstation

limited to 16 tracks = not bad

limited audio storage for adding guitars/vocals = NO storage at all, no audio tracks, not even flash for loading samples

working fast and having fun = oh, that's it! I bought the M3 in order to sell my computer, and will never come back

Specific M3 Questions

Can play the chords directly in the sequencer? = can't really say I understand. But: study the pads, they will do a lot of chord work

And does every patch have a series of chords pre-loaded? = ?

[/b] Can the internal M3 sequencer control an external synth? YES

Would it capture its controller data ala knob turns, etc? = ouch...

I know the Radias board has 128 patches... = wrong. ALL the M3 editable patch memory can be allocated to radias sounds if you want

user banks in general, how many of my own patches can I save? = everything is user-editable

I assume that the commercial sound sets I can buy can be loaded in to the Ram... do these get loaded in to the “user” banks? = no, see above: enverything is "user editable"

Other than the obvious space limitations, am I limited to how many samples = ram is the limit

does the M3 look as "cheap" in person as it does in some pics = yes

The Motif has a ton of 3rd party sound sets, with more on the way. Does the M3 have similar deep support? = yess. see karmalab forum for this

Any other thoughts? Things you think I should consider? = buy the module and use a master keyboard, the keyboard isn't worth it. The 88 has good keys, but the master functions are just laughable

[apex]

On the motif XS rack all programs (voices) sound the exact same in multi/performance mode (which is the same as sequence mode) as they do in voice mode. All effects are applied. I'm not sure how many inserts you get. But all settings are automatically applied from the voice (single/program) mode.

Maybe it's different for the XS Rack (but highly unlikely), but the Motif XS manual says what I said earlier. The insert effects are assigned to a voice, not to a performance or song, and you get two inserts per voice (with some of the inserts possibly using both slots, like vocoder). In performance mode (up to 4 voices), all voices have their insert effects used. In song mode, you have to choose which 8 voices will use their insert effects; the other 8 have no effects at all besides reverb, chorus, and master EQ which are applied to the final mix of all voices anyway.

The key difference with what you and I are saying is that performance mode is NOT the same as song mode. Song mode has up to 16 tracks, while performance mode has only four voices.

and another KEY difference is that the XS rack DOES NOT HAVE SONG MODE OR PERFORMANCE. It only has multi mode and voice mode.

But yes you are correct about the XS rack being the same as the XS keyboard. It can have a maximum of 8 parts with insert effects applied at a time.

But all parts do have part EQ (all 16) and all have the reverb and chorus levels...

So now that we know that... is this effects system the same, more, or less powerful that the effects system on the m3?

[kanthos]

It depends on the flexibility you want. On a Motif, I can get up to four effects on a voice, plus EQ, assuming I'm happy with the reverb and chorus effects being applied to everything in my multi/performance and that I'm happy with two of my effects being chosen from fairly limited pools. If I'm happy with those limitations, I get as many as 4 effects on a program and 19 overall (insert A & B x 8 plus the reverb, chorus, and master).

On the M3, I can get up to 5 effects on a program without using the master and total effect slots, but I only get 8 effects in total, BUT I can have all my programs running through all 8 effects.

Really, it comes down to whether you need more programs to have more varied effects or fewer programs to have a greater number of effects at once. I wouldn't say either one is better or worse.

[Shakil]

So now that we know that... is this effects system (Motif XS/XF) the same, more, or less powerful that the effects system on the m3?

It's less powerful in the sense that you waste DSP power when you want to process layers of tracks through same Effects. On M3 you can route multiple tracks through same IFX.

The other flaw with Motif XS/XF (and Fantom-G) is that the IFXs /PFXs are tied with the program/patches, so you can't audition different versions of programs with your tweaked effects in your song. When you change the program, your tweaks to the IFX are gone.

From a studio setup and song mixing point of view, M3 is more powerful and flexible and work flow is smoother, without needing to redial the effects settings again ... and again.. and again..

[apex]

So now that we know that... is this effects system (Motif XS/XF) the same, more, or less powerful that the effects system on the m3?

It's less powerful in the sense that you waste DSP power when you want to process layers of tracks through same Effects. On M3 you can route multiple tracks through same IFX.

The other flaw with Motif XS/XF (and Fantom-G) is that the IFXs /PFXs are tied with the program/patches, so you can't audition different versions of programs with your tweaked effects in your song. When you change the program, your tweaks to the IFX are gone.

From a studio setup and song mixing point of view, M3 is more powerful and flexible and work flow is smoother, without needing to redial the effects settings again ... and again.. and again..

It just clicked to me what you are saying about trying to audition different patches with the same effect settings. Yeah that is a bummer!!!!

Is there no way to do this on the FG?

Also, is this something that people actually do? Make an effect setting then audition sounds against the effects? I mean I've done this with ARPs on the Triton, but I don't think I've ever used it to audition effects against a patch.

Seems like a cool concept though. There's no way to do this on the FG?, but can you do it like that on the XS rack?

[Shakil]

It just clicked to me what you are saying about trying to audition different patches with the same effect settings. Yeah that is a bummer!!!!

Is there no way to do this on the FG?

Also, is this something that people actually do? Make an effect setting then audition sounds against the effects? I mean I've done this with ARPs on the Triton, but I don't think I've ever used it to audition effects against a patch.

Seems like a cool concept though. There's no way to do this on the FG?, but can you do it like that on the XS rack?

There is no way to audition different patches with same IFX on Fantom-G or Motif without manually dialing all IFX settings for each patch.

It's very common to work this way. When you are making a song, and adding MIDI tracks one after another. There are times when you want to try a different bass sound, or a slightly different piano, strings.. anything... and see how it sounds with rest of the instruments.

It's possible to do it on M3, and it was possible to do it on Fantom-X.. Roland screwed up the effects routing by copying the Motif structure and trying to make a buz with '16' IFXs.

[apex]

It just clicked to me what you are saying about trying to audition different patches with the same effect settings. Yeah that is a bummer!!!!

Is there no way to do this on the FG?

Also, is this something that people actually do? Make an effect setting then audition sounds against the effects? I mean I've done this with ARPs on the Triton, but I don't think I've ever used it to audition effects against a patch.

Seems like a cool concept though. There's no way to do this on the FG?, but can you do it like that on the XS rack?

There is no way to audition different patches with same IFX on Fantom-G or Motif without manually dialing all IFX settings for each patch.

It's very common to work this way. When you are making a song, and adding MIDI tracks one after another. There are times when you want to try a different bass sound, or a slightly different piano, strings.. anything... and see how it sounds with rest of the instruments.

It's possible to do it on M3, and it was possible to do it on Fantom-X.. Roland screwed up the effects routing by copying the Motif structure and trying to make a buz with '16' IFXs.

I've done that before with instruments... to see how a different instrument would sound in the mix, but never (as far as I can remember) to see how different instruments would sound with current effects settings.

Also Shak, is this something that they could fix in a software update? 2.0?

[Jive Talking Robot]

Shakil,

Thanks a ton for breaking down how the effects systems work on the Roland/Korg/Yamaha workstations... it was very helpful. I feel the Korg approach is the most flexible, but could you clear something up regarding the Motif approach? I know in pattern/song mode the Motif can have a maximum of 8 parts with x2 insert effects applied at a time (and that these effects are taken directly from the Voice mode) and all 16 parts do have EQ, reverb and chorus. Regarding the other 8 parts w/o insert effects, can you rout them through first 8 parts’ effects in any way, or do they ONLY have access to the EQ/Verb/Chorus?

Thanks!