K-Pro Volume issue

DannyOcean · Post by **DannyOcean** » Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:22 pm

I think this issue was discussed a few months ago, but I don't think anyone came up with a solution - any help gratefully received!

I've just got a small mixer (Behringer xenyx 1204USB) I'm putting the K-pro through and I have a problem with the output volume of the K-Pro on certain programmes. On some programmes the volume is normal, on others it's half-power, some almost inaudible.

It's not the K-Pro unit itself, if I run it through a keyboard amp or powered speakers (or headphones) all of the programmes have equal volumes.

Also the mixer channels seem to be working: I can run other synths, mics, etc through them without a problem and in fact, on the right K-Pro programme, the sound is crystal clear and the 'right' volume.

Just wondered if there was some sort of compatibility issue with this mixer, or something obvious I've missed on the mixer settings? Any ideas?

xmlguy · Post by **xmlguy** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:48 am

Which specific programs seem to have low output, and do they share any audio characteristics in common?

DannyOcean · Post by **DannyOcean** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:29 pm

Thanks for the reply, but I don't think it's the audio characteristics.

For example, the drum patterns are all over the place: P.160 (Hip Hop 1) is muddy, whereas P.170 (hip hop 2) is fine.

The same applies to P.161 (House 1) which is barely audible, while P.166 (House 3) is clear as a bell.

Griffin Avid · Post by **Griffin Avid** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 4:50 pm

Could it be panning? Perhaps some of the K-Pro settings that use panning as an effect are getting lost in the mixer.

Most people push each channel FAR Left and FAR Right to simulate a true stereo field. Even the master fader/channel is panned to full spread.

As an experiment, I would try to hook up some other piece with panning abilities and see what happens to the signal.

DannyOcean · Post by **DannyOcean** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:56 pm

Another good suggestion, but sadly altering the panning has no effect (well, none which improves the muddy sound/low volume).

Besides, about a third of the programmes on the K-Pro are affected by this.

As I say, the unit works fine sent straight through an amp/headphones, so it's frustrating that there's some snag when it goes through this (otherwise fully-functioning) mixer. I'm sure I'm missing something obvious!

xmlguy · Post by **xmlguy** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:10 pm

Please describe exactly how you have the K-Pro hooked up to the mixer, and what your settings are for the channels you're using on the mixer.

You are possibly getting some kind of phase cancellation.

DannyOcean · Post by **DannyOcean** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:10 pm

Line out of the K-Pro (RCA to 1/4 inch jack cable) into line in. Gain at twelve o'clock-ish, EQ flat, aux sends at 12, pan centred, faders at 'O'. Phantom power off.

I've messed around with these settings of course with the same result. As I say, on some programmes, it's fine on these settings.

Oh, speakers are KRK Rokit 5 G2s. I've tried them coming out of control room out and alt 3/4. And I'm getting the same problems through the headphones.

Thanks!

xmlguy · Post by **xmlguy** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:19 am

Change it to this:

Left Line out of the K-Pro (RCA to 1/4 inch jack cable) into Left Line in 5 (top panel).
Right Line out of the K-Pro (RCA to 1/4 inch jack cable) into Right Line in 6.

Set Program Level max position.

Line In Level to +4 setting. EQ flat, aux sends to off (-infinity), balance centered, faders at 'O'. Then back down on the K-Pro to stop the clipping light on the mixer.

The principles behind these settings are:
Start with a hot signal from the source
Keep it hot - don't increase or cut the gain for normal program levels further down the signal path except to cut off the channel. Increasing gain, in particular, increases the noise floor along with the signal.
Back down the hot signal from the source just enough to prevent clipping down the signal path.

The reason why you don't want to use Ch 1-4 on your mixer for the K-pro (or any line out device - unless you have no other choice) is because they have high-gain (+10 to +60 dB) mic preamps, which are best for mics. They also have compressors, which can screw with your gain levels. Ch 5-6 are stereo channels design for line input, which have lower gain preamps (-10 to +40 dB), no compressors, and will be quieter. You also can control the stereo level with a single fader.

DannyOcean · Post by **DannyOcean** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:25 am

Wow! Thanks for all that! I'll give that a shot at the weekend and report back. Thanks again - I love this forum.

P.s. Seeing as I have mainly line-in devices (K-Pro, K-01, synth, feed from computer) would it make more sense to have a DJ-type mixer? Do they have lower gain inputs?

Then again, I do have a bass to put through it too...

xmlguy · Post by **xmlguy** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:34 pm

Glad to help! I'll be interested to hear back.

The best mixers for keyboards have lots of stereo channels. Some mixers also have a special configuration for line inputs on regular channels that bypass the high-gain mic preamp to a second-stage low gain preamp, with either a switch on the panel or a special 1/4" jack that disconnects the high gain input when plugged in. It's more a matter of selecting the mixers that have these specific features. Some DJ mixers have up to 7 or so stereo inputs, but they can be pricey, although they can have some very nice features like CUE buttons, sampling, digital FX, and such for the money. Often DJ mixers are missing useful features like an effects send/return loop, lots of XLR mic connectors, and a lack of aux busses for monitoring and recording.

One inexpensive mixer that's pretty good for keyboards is the Behringer 1002B because it has 4 stereo channels, and unlike many mini-mixers it has channel faders instead of knobs. It can also run on batteries. I have a slightly older model that I use for a keyboard submixer. I also have a Mackie DFX12 that I got on sale for $99, which also has 4 stereo channels. The Mackie is a step up in features and quality from the 1002B. I suggest that you make a priority list of all the features you want and then shop around for deals for a while. I waited for many months before I found the DFX12 on clearance at Guitar Center. You want a better quality mixer if you're going to haul it to gigs on a regular basis, and since I'm not sold on the durability of Behringer mixers, I'd suggest a Mackie, Yamaha, or Allen & Heath for durability along with a quality flight-case.

wmpeters · Post by **wmpeters** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:43 am

The most convenient sub mixer I have is the EURORACK PRO RX1602, 8 stereo channels in a single RU (for those obsessed people with lots of electronic gear), pretty cheep too.

DannyOcean · Post by **DannyOcean** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:39 pm

Okay, I've set it all up as you suggest, but I'm not getting anything through the speakers unless I turn up the phones/ctrl rm pot and press the solo button (I'm going out to the speakers through the control room outputs, as I don't have any xlr cables atm, the same thing happens through the headphones). That makes the 'clip' light above the 'solo' button light up red, which stays on however high or low the signal from the K-Pro is.

Don't know if this is relevant, but the first green light on the L 'Main Mix' fader is lighting (just the first one marked 20, clipping the second marked 5 when the K-Pro is turned full up), but not the right one, even though I'm getting the same level of signal through the speakers/phones.

And most importantly, the K-Pro signals are behaving in the same way (P.166 sounds great, P.161 almost dead).

I'm guessing from all this I'm doing something wrong, but I don't know what! Any advice/ideas would be great.

Pastor-of-Muppets · Post by **Pastor-of-Muppets** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:19 pm

are the 1/4 jack cables you're using mono or stereo?

you want a single RCA jack to a single mono 1/4 jack, for each channel

DannyOcean · Post by **DannyOcean** » Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:26 am

Ah. No, I was using twin RCA (as in left and right) to single jack cables, but only using one of the RCA plugs. I take it I need something like this?

http://whirlwindusa.com/catalog/pre-wir ... dapter/m30

Pastor-of-Muppets · Post by **Pastor-of-Muppets** » Sun Jan 16, 2011 1:18 am

yes

you can get cables that are like two of them joined together, so two RCA at one end and two mono 1/4" jacks at the other

or you can just use two of those ones in that picture