Ok I am going to post this one out there and see what comes back...
has anyone else had a go at creating a "hang" type sound based on the preasure pitched algorithms ?
I have had a couple of gos and may have another try this weekend and post my results.
so far the keys are
obviously needs to be metalic
needs to be pitched probably using one of the scales (ive not tried using non scaled but having pressue alter pitch in a free way like say the Tabla)
Muting needs to be set up so quick slaps give the most sustain and held slaps mute the note.
anyone up for this ? I think if we keep passing it round between us we may find something workable (or totally new)
Hang Drum Challenge
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WaveDrummer
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WaveDrummer
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Hang Drum simulation
Hang Drum simulation
OK, here's my first attempt at this.
I could see taking two different approaches but in the end, I think it will be more along the line of, as you suggested, "something new."
There are melodic limitations that make it difficult, if not impossible, to replicate the modulation and chord changes that one hears when listening to an actual Hang Drum (I've never played one myself. YouTube experience only). The only way I could see to do it properly would be to have two Wavedrums, with identical or nearly identical programs, but tuned differently. That wil be for another day.
In the end, I think I can create some interesting programs that are both melodic and metallic, but ultimately they'll be programs that are "inspired by" the Hang Drum rather than any true replication. And that's totally cool too!
The first one:
My first approach was to start with the Steel Drum Program. #49
With only a few alterations, I end up with a fun and musical result. To me, the Hang Drum sounds like the blending of a Steel Drum and a Kalimba. But we can only choose one of those at a time (for the head, or primary sound), from the PCM list. My first version is based around the Steel Drum. I'll try another one based around the Kalimba, in the near future.
For this one, I'm working with the following algorithms and PCMs:
Head Algorithm: 21 Bamboo
Head PCM: 36 Steel Drum
Rim Algorithm: 20 Koto
Rim PCM: 50 Steel Drum (Low)
The other obstacle is that by choosing the Steel Drum PCM, it means that if we combine that with one of the three algorithms that allow "scale selection," then we must choose the Pentatonic Scale for that algorithm in order to avoid any serious dissonances with the Steel Drum, which is set to a fixed scale (although the root note can altered).
Any other melodic sounds that are chosen can only be tuned within octaves of the Steel Drum for the same reasons--to avoid dissonance. But that's what we have to work with.
I find it essential to edit the different parameters in the order I've listed. Select the Algorithms and PCMs first! (I'll address editing, in more specific terms, in a separate thread)
The numbers in Red are the only ones that you should have to change from the default settings on P#49. All the settings are listed for clarity though. Any parameters not listed, are ones that I left in their default settings.
Pay close attention the negative setting in the second tuning parameter (Head PCM).
Here's how it lays out. Edit 1 Mode:
ALG: 21__36__20__50
LEV: 100_25__100_50
tun: 50__-05__45__00
dcy: 100_10__90__00
rEb: 05__40__50__30
Edit 2 Mode:
H 1-4 00__35__15__00
H 5-8 00__24__00__00
Rim Algorithm settings [r1-4 & r5-8] for #20 Koto are all Default settings. No changes necessary. Although the Koto algorithm has different notes applied to it, these are set to a fixed scale that can not be altered. The relative tuning can be changed, but not the scale itself. It seems to work OK though.
I've found that when assigning various algorithms to the rim, many of the edit features of that algorithm will have little effect, if any, on the overall sound. These features will be more prominent when the same algorithm is applied to the head, because it so much more expressive than a hard rim. So quite often, there is little or no benefit to changing them much. The major exception being when different scales can be chosen. Then it is crucial to select the appropriate one in order to avoid any melodic conflict with other sounds already chosen for that particular program.
All in all, you can see that not too much had to be altered from the original #49 Program. But it took more than a few hours of experimentation to discover that!.
Let me know how you like this program!
OK, here's my first attempt at this.
I could see taking two different approaches but in the end, I think it will be more along the line of, as you suggested, "something new."
There are melodic limitations that make it difficult, if not impossible, to replicate the modulation and chord changes that one hears when listening to an actual Hang Drum (I've never played one myself. YouTube experience only). The only way I could see to do it properly would be to have two Wavedrums, with identical or nearly identical programs, but tuned differently. That wil be for another day.
In the end, I think I can create some interesting programs that are both melodic and metallic, but ultimately they'll be programs that are "inspired by" the Hang Drum rather than any true replication. And that's totally cool too!
The first one:
My first approach was to start with the Steel Drum Program. #49
With only a few alterations, I end up with a fun and musical result. To me, the Hang Drum sounds like the blending of a Steel Drum and a Kalimba. But we can only choose one of those at a time (for the head, or primary sound), from the PCM list. My first version is based around the Steel Drum. I'll try another one based around the Kalimba, in the near future.
For this one, I'm working with the following algorithms and PCMs:
Head Algorithm: 21 Bamboo
Head PCM: 36 Steel Drum
Rim Algorithm: 20 Koto
Rim PCM: 50 Steel Drum (Low)
The other obstacle is that by choosing the Steel Drum PCM, it means that if we combine that with one of the three algorithms that allow "scale selection," then we must choose the Pentatonic Scale for that algorithm in order to avoid any serious dissonances with the Steel Drum, which is set to a fixed scale (although the root note can altered).
Any other melodic sounds that are chosen can only be tuned within octaves of the Steel Drum for the same reasons--to avoid dissonance. But that's what we have to work with.
I find it essential to edit the different parameters in the order I've listed. Select the Algorithms and PCMs first! (I'll address editing, in more specific terms, in a separate thread)
The numbers in Red are the only ones that you should have to change from the default settings on P#49. All the settings are listed for clarity though. Any parameters not listed, are ones that I left in their default settings.
Pay close attention the negative setting in the second tuning parameter (Head PCM).
Here's how it lays out. Edit 1 Mode:
ALG: 21__36__20__50
LEV: 100_25__100_50
tun: 50__-05__45__00
dcy: 100_10__90__00
rEb: 05__40__50__30
Edit 2 Mode:
H 1-4 00__35__15__00
H 5-8 00__24__00__00
Rim Algorithm settings [r1-4 & r5-8] for #20 Koto are all Default settings. No changes necessary. Although the Koto algorithm has different notes applied to it, these are set to a fixed scale that can not be altered. The relative tuning can be changed, but not the scale itself. It seems to work OK though.
I've found that when assigning various algorithms to the rim, many of the edit features of that algorithm will have little effect, if any, on the overall sound. These features will be more prominent when the same algorithm is applied to the head, because it so much more expressive than a hard rim. So quite often, there is little or no benefit to changing them much. The major exception being when different scales can be chosen. Then it is crucial to select the appropriate one in order to avoid any melodic conflict with other sounds already chosen for that particular program.
All in all, you can see that not too much had to be altered from the original #49 Program. But it took more than a few hours of experimentation to discover that!.
Let me know how you like this program!
Last edited by WaveDrummer on Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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phillwilson
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Wow I am at work now but I litterally cant wait to get home and dial this in.
amazing work sir, my cap is doffed to you !!
I for my part in this challenge.........well to be honest I copped out...i needed something workable for a specific gig and ended up going to the Handsonic and making a rather lovely tuned pan sound but pitching down and down again !!!
hopefully respite the complete dis similarity of the tw instruments some of the edits I did on handsonic will help me tweak my hang wavedrum patch.
I will , with your permission dial yours up and see where that takes me.
kudos to you sir.
Phill
amazing work sir, my cap is doffed to you !!
I for my part in this challenge.........well to be honest I copped out...i needed something workable for a specific gig and ended up going to the Handsonic and making a rather lovely tuned pan sound but pitching down and down again !!!
hopefully respite the complete dis similarity of the tw instruments some of the edits I did on handsonic will help me tweak my hang wavedrum patch.
I will , with your permission dial yours up and see where that takes me.
kudos to you sir.
Phill
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WaveDrummer
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It turns out that I wasn't too impressed with what I came up with when starting with the Kalimba PCM. I think what I've already offered here is about the best I can come up with for the time being.
It's a lot like recording a track: quite often the first take is the most magical.
I really like the Steel Drum one above, it seems to work well with the hands. The rim sound offers a nice contrast, and pressing head has some nice pitch bending effects.
I wanted to incorporate some minor scales into the mix but there are only three algorithms that really allow that, and they are not anything close to the Hang Drum tone. So for now, I think I've hit a dead end. But one cool program did come from this!
By all means, copy those parameters and explore!
It's a lot like recording a track: quite often the first take is the most magical.
I really like the Steel Drum one above, it seems to work well with the hands. The rim sound offers a nice contrast, and pressing head has some nice pitch bending effects.
I wanted to incorporate some minor scales into the mix but there are only three algorithms that really allow that, and they are not anything close to the Hang Drum tone. So for now, I think I've hit a dead end. But one cool program did come from this!
By all means, copy those parameters and explore!
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WaveDrummer
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- Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:43 am
- Location: Connecticut, USA
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Not yet, I was trying to be fair and create something that everyone can use. I will attempt something on the Oriental but I'm not so sure the additional algorithms will help too much in this specific instance.Bertotti wrote:Wave Drummer did you try this on the oriental with the extra algos?
I have to at least try though, right ?
Patch Hang drum
Was searching for this patch I saw a video of. Did the programming and went fine. Thank you.
But I got an issue, since I tried to program another sound, from this one, which went fine, and saved it in different slot. But when I came back to this one, it lost all the notes pitch on the rim, just one sound, no more variety of chanting notes. Tried to program again, cheked everything. All parameters are right. Shut the thing off and on, no change…
Any clue? Any one got that issue? and a solution…
But I got an issue, since I tried to program another sound, from this one, which went fine, and saved it in different slot. But when I came back to this one, it lost all the notes pitch on the rim, just one sound, no more variety of chanting notes. Tried to program again, cheked everything. All parameters are right. Shut the thing off and on, no change…
Any clue? Any one got that issue? and a solution…
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WaveDrummer
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- Location: Connecticut, USA
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@shakuh
I'm glad you bumped this thread because I was just going to modify one, very minor, thing. It should be inconsequential but I wanted to correct it anyway.
In the above tun parameter, I've changed the third setting from 44 to 45.
I say "inconsequential" because that algorithm, #20 Koto, only has a tuning range of 45 - 62. I discovered this while working on a variation of the Hang Drum sound, and only just realized that my original program used a setting that didn't actually apply, but it shouldn't affect the sound at all. Once you reach 45 in the tuning, you can still select a lower number but the pitch doesn't change at all. Just for clarity and consistency though, I wanted to correct that setting.
As to your question:
I can't imagine that what I've described above is in any way causing your problem, but it might be worth checking just to be sure (although as you said, it worked fine for you originally).
Which version of the Wavedrum do you have— Silver, Black or Oriental?
I really can't think of why this would be happening other than to suggest that some setting must've changed. If triple, triple checking the parameters doesn't reveal an answer, try turning down the Level settings of the other three sounds to 00 so you can isolate just the rim algorithm #20 Koto, and be certain that that Level is set to 100.
You could've easily, and unknowingly, altered something in the Edit 2 mode for the rim settings rm1-8. I find that this is, by far, where mistakes are most easily made in programming. It can be easy to get lost in the menus and not realize if you are changing the hd or rm settings when in Edit 2 mode.
To be clear: Your Edit 2 rim settings should be as follows (these are the settings that should come up for #20 Koto. I did not include them originally because these are the factory default settings that should appear when that algorithm is first selected).
Edit 2 Mode:
r. 1-4 00__47__25__22
r. 5-8 00__30__03__07
Pay close attention to setting #7 "03." That parameter affects the range of pitches that will be heard.
Let me know if this helps, and please keep us updated.
Good luck!
I'm glad you bumped this thread because I was just going to modify one, very minor, thing. It should be inconsequential but I wanted to correct it anyway.
In the above tun parameter, I've changed the third setting from 44 to 45.
I say "inconsequential" because that algorithm, #20 Koto, only has a tuning range of 45 - 62. I discovered this while working on a variation of the Hang Drum sound, and only just realized that my original program used a setting that didn't actually apply, but it shouldn't affect the sound at all. Once you reach 45 in the tuning, you can still select a lower number but the pitch doesn't change at all. Just for clarity and consistency though, I wanted to correct that setting.
As to your question:
I can't imagine that what I've described above is in any way causing your problem, but it might be worth checking just to be sure (although as you said, it worked fine for you originally).
Which version of the Wavedrum do you have— Silver, Black or Oriental?
I really can't think of why this would be happening other than to suggest that some setting must've changed. If triple, triple checking the parameters doesn't reveal an answer, try turning down the Level settings of the other three sounds to 00 so you can isolate just the rim algorithm #20 Koto, and be certain that that Level is set to 100.
You could've easily, and unknowingly, altered something in the Edit 2 mode for the rim settings rm1-8. I find that this is, by far, where mistakes are most easily made in programming. It can be easy to get lost in the menus and not realize if you are changing the hd or rm settings when in Edit 2 mode.
To be clear: Your Edit 2 rim settings should be as follows (these are the settings that should come up for #20 Koto. I did not include them originally because these are the factory default settings that should appear when that algorithm is first selected).
Edit 2 Mode:
r. 1-4 00__47__25__22
r. 5-8 00__30__03__07
Pay close attention to setting #7 "03." That parameter affects the range of pitches that will be heard.
Let me know if this helps, and please keep us updated.
Good luck!
Thank you Wavedrummer for your prompt and detailed answer!
It is a silver Wavedrum, bought 3 days ago second hand, as new, 3 months old. The key for tensing the skin is missing, but easy to find on ebay.
In fact I tripple checked everything, and nothing abnormal was found (once a mistake that changed the pitch, but nothing else).
What just happens is still confusing, I played the WD on my knees, and the ring was responding to pich changes, for the 3 different versions of the Hang, then after a while, just got one sound again for the 3 versions. Even when beating harder the rim with a stick.
So that let me conclude the problem could be at the level of the rim pressure sensor, I checked the rim calibration, tried other settings, and nothing happened. So may be there is something wrong with the WD hardware, hope not, though it is under warranty.
Just before posting something donged on me, when the WD is horizontal, the problem came back, I took it again at 45° and the rim is now pitch sensitive. May be I need to find a key to unscrew a bit or screw slightly tighter, the skin and rim, the last thing I could check, as I don't think that the pressure sensor is in cause here cause it concerns the head.
In fact, for the sake of my hands, I think the most sensitive the rim is the coolest. Someone suggested the rim could have been rubberised, at least for confort, as triggering some effects need quite a pressure or velocity.
Thank you for reading.
It is a silver Wavedrum, bought 3 days ago second hand, as new, 3 months old. The key for tensing the skin is missing, but easy to find on ebay.
In fact I tripple checked everything, and nothing abnormal was found (once a mistake that changed the pitch, but nothing else).
What just happens is still confusing, I played the WD on my knees, and the ring was responding to pich changes, for the 3 different versions of the Hang, then after a while, just got one sound again for the 3 versions. Even when beating harder the rim with a stick.
So that let me conclude the problem could be at the level of the rim pressure sensor, I checked the rim calibration, tried other settings, and nothing happened. So may be there is something wrong with the WD hardware, hope not, though it is under warranty.
Just before posting something donged on me, when the WD is horizontal, the problem came back, I took it again at 45° and the rim is now pitch sensitive. May be I need to find a key to unscrew a bit or screw slightly tighter, the skin and rim, the last thing I could check, as I don't think that the pressure sensor is in cause here cause it concerns the head.
In fact, for the sake of my hands, I think the most sensitive the rim is the coolest. Someone suggested the rim could have been rubberised, at least for confort, as triggering some effects need quite a pressure or velocity.
Thank you for reading.
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WaveDrummer
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OK, that extra info helps a bit.
First off, if you bought the Wavedrum used, it may NOT actually be covered under warranty but I'm not sure. I wouldn't worry about this too much though. Service for it should still be available if necessary.
Getting a drumkey should be quite easy. Just about ANY music store should carry them. Definitely get one as soon as possible. That might solve your problem. That fact that you describe the response of the Wavedrum changing depending on the angle it is positioned at, tells me that something is probably loose or not making contact correctly.
When you have a drumkey you should remove the head and check to see if the rim senors are attached properly. Just remember to remove the rim very slowly and carefully. There is a short, protective band that keeps the rim from being completely removed. This is to protect the rim sensor from getting pulled out of position and damaged.
However, it might just be a matter of the head tension being so uneven that this is affecting the way the rim trigger responds. If some of the tension rods are very loose, it may cause a problem. Just remember not to tighten the rods too much. Keeping a modest amount of tension on the head tends to work the best in terms of dynamic response—especially when playing with just your hands.
Here is an older thread about head tension and tuning:
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=58750
The other thing I would suggest, because your Wavedrum was pre-owned, would be to perform the Factory Reset function. You can find this in the Owner Manual at the beginning of the Appendix. There is also a diagram of the inside of the Wavedrum that shows where the sensors are located.
You will lose any custom programs you have entered if you do this, so be sure to write down all your settings and document those first!
You just never know what adjustments the original owner may have attempted, so resetting the factory default settings is always a good idea.
I suspect that your problem has more to do with the physical hardware though—loose sensor, loose tension rods, etc. I would also suggest that you get a tuning key and tension the head properly before trying to calibrate the sensors.
First off, if you bought the Wavedrum used, it may NOT actually be covered under warranty but I'm not sure. I wouldn't worry about this too much though. Service for it should still be available if necessary.
Getting a drumkey should be quite easy. Just about ANY music store should carry them. Definitely get one as soon as possible. That might solve your problem. That fact that you describe the response of the Wavedrum changing depending on the angle it is positioned at, tells me that something is probably loose or not making contact correctly.
When you have a drumkey you should remove the head and check to see if the rim senors are attached properly. Just remember to remove the rim very slowly and carefully. There is a short, protective band that keeps the rim from being completely removed. This is to protect the rim sensor from getting pulled out of position and damaged.
However, it might just be a matter of the head tension being so uneven that this is affecting the way the rim trigger responds. If some of the tension rods are very loose, it may cause a problem. Just remember not to tighten the rods too much. Keeping a modest amount of tension on the head tends to work the best in terms of dynamic response—especially when playing with just your hands.
Here is an older thread about head tension and tuning:
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=58750
The other thing I would suggest, because your Wavedrum was pre-owned, would be to perform the Factory Reset function. You can find this in the Owner Manual at the beginning of the Appendix. There is also a diagram of the inside of the Wavedrum that shows where the sensors are located.
You will lose any custom programs you have entered if you do this, so be sure to write down all your settings and document those first!
You just never know what adjustments the original owner may have attempted, so resetting the factory default settings is always a good idea.
I suspect that your problem has more to do with the physical hardware though—loose sensor, loose tension rods, etc. I would also suggest that you get a tuning key and tension the head properly before trying to calibrate the sensors.
Thanks again, Wavedrummer, we arrived to the same conclusions, and you added your experience and advices, great. I ordered a drumkey and will try that soon.
I allready read your post on how to tense the skin, very informative and probably crucial.
I read on the Remo forum, the skin maker, someone from the company adviced a skin for the WD which is neither the original skin, nor the black skin they provide for black ltd version, but their FT-0510-00, a fiber skin with a raw dirty leather look. I'll try it one day.
Also, there is an interesting thread in Audiofanzine forum (a french website),
http://fr.audiofanzine.com/batterie-ele ... g+Wavedrum
and that person, Freestok, made a video (in english) that opens ways to make evolve the WD, still in early states but quite promissing.
http://www.pandacreasite.com/wavedrum.html
So I'll keep posted any relevant feedback.
Greetings
EDIT, so with all the older threads bumps, see that I rumbling old topics that were well covered ; )
I allready read your post on how to tense the skin, very informative and probably crucial.
I read on the Remo forum, the skin maker, someone from the company adviced a skin for the WD which is neither the original skin, nor the black skin they provide for black ltd version, but their FT-0510-00, a fiber skin with a raw dirty leather look. I'll try it one day.
Also, there is an interesting thread in Audiofanzine forum (a french website),
http://fr.audiofanzine.com/batterie-ele ... g+Wavedrum
and that person, Freestok, made a video (in english) that opens ways to make evolve the WD, still in early states but quite promissing.
http://www.pandacreasite.com/wavedrum.html
So I'll keep posted any relevant feedback.
Greetings
EDIT, so with all the older threads bumps, see that I rumbling old topics that were well covered ; )