I finally put my hands on the kronos

[cello]

I would love to hear from Korg on why they left those out...

I think the obvious answer will be 'because it wasn't on the OASYS'!

[ozy]

Brass model , Reed model , Bowed String model

nope, let's put the discussion back in track.

with all due respect, those models sounded good, had their strong character, I loved the prophecy...

... but they were NOWHERE near as good as the yamaha VL. No way.

Neither under the "emulation" profile, not under the "outlandish presudoacoustic whale chant programming" profile.

Including a "Z1 module" could have been a good idea and a tribute to a very good machine,

but for acustic emulation it would have killed the "modeling" idea forever. People would have stuck to sampled bassoons.

what I am asking is: korg should do for winds and brasses what it did for rhodes.

Let me try a formula:

prophecy : real sax = yamaha dx7 : real rhodes

but:

kronos : rhodes = yamaha-VL : sax

I'd like to to sell the yamaha VLs, buy a kronos, and have rhodes and brass of the same quality.

According to my test yesterday, I can't.

I want brass and winds I can PLAY (using keys, breath, aftertouch, ribbon, etc) without having to change octave in order to change articulation. So, no sampled trills or falls or screams. I want the instrument to scream when I scream on a half-note.

If I want synthish sounds of quasi-trumpetish character, I'll use an analogue, not a prophecy.

[danatkorg]

it looks like he doesnt have a problem selecting programs? Maybe Ozy can be more specific about the pads...

now, here's the point: I had problems selecting the patches.

You know oasys or m3, right?

you go to the patch name in program mode, open the category, scroll tabs and patch names? ok.

well: on the kronos, engaging the "category" is a matter of putting your fingers on a 2mm link.

TWO MMs!

KRONOS category button height: 6.5mm
OASYS category button height: 8mm

Pretty similar to each other, and each about the same height as the iPhone's "swipe to unlock" slider.

Then the list opens, the tabs are ok but the names are again very narrow, I made bad choices several times.

Sounds like one of several things might have been happening:

1. The touch-screen was not calibrated for you. I find that it's good to calibrate the touch-screen for the specific angle of view; for instance, standing up vs. sitting down. Two people of different height would do best with different calibrations, as well. This is noted prominently in the manuals, including the introduction to the touch-screen UI in the Quick Start guide.

2. I find that the touch-screens on all the Korg instruments (OASYS, M3, KRONOS etc.) work best when used with a fingernail, rather than a fingertip. This allows for a more precise touch.

I'm very sorry that your demonstrator did not explain this to you; it sounds like it would have saved you a lot of frustration.

The response at the touch is not immediate (you know, hitting "ok" a couple of time? That unnerving feeling?).

That means that OK wasn't actually pressed, presumably due to the reasons discussed above.

Hope this helps,

Dan

[Unicorn]

I would love to hear from Korg on why they left those out...

I think the obvious answer will be 'because it wasn't on the OASYS'!

Lol

[GregC]

Brass model , Reed model , Bowed String model

nope, let's put the discussion back in track.

with all due respect, those models sounded good, had their strong character, I loved the prophecy...

... but they were NOWHERE near as good as the yamaha VL. No way.

Neither under the "emulation" profile, not under the "outlandish presudoacoustic whale chant programming" profile.

Including a "Z1 module" could have been a good idea and a tribute to a very good machine,

but for acustic emulation it would have killed the "modeling" idea forever. People would have stuck to sampled bassoons.

what I am asking is: korg should do for winds and brasses what it did for rhodes.

Let me try a formula:

prophecy : real sax = yamaha dx7 : real rhodes

but:

kronos : rhodes = yamaha-VL : sax

I'd like to to sell the yamaha VLs, buy a kronos, and have rhodes and brass of the same quality.

According to my test yesterday, I can't.

I want brass and winds I can PLAY (using keys, breath, aftertouch, ribbon, etc) without having to change octave in order to change articulation. So, no sampled trills or falls or screams. I want the instrument to scream when I scream on a half-note.

If I want synthish sounds of quasi-trumpetish character, I'll use an analogue, not a prophecy.

looks like the Kronos isn't happening for you.

Thank you very much for your numerous posts on this forum.

[ozy]

I see, Dan.

Matter of fact, this thread is about my first physical direct contact with the Kronos after 45 days of pure chatter.

No mediation, no explanation, no excuses, a "what if I had just spent 4000 and it was in my studio?" kind of thing.

I will repeat it after reading the manual, of course.

Specifications, tips and tricks, we have discussed for one month+20 days now.

It was the time of touching and hearing it.

And I am reporting those aspects.

Among those aspects, is as well "how immediate the physical interface is"?

In a nutshell: I already needed a dried felt-tip to navigate the M3, I'll need a sharp pencil to navigate the Kronos.

Those are the proportions.

That means "no immediacy", no "left hand up from the keyboard, quick fine tune, then down comping again". It's: stop playing, grab an object, program, let the opencil down, play.

They should test the instruments with Latin, Middle-Eastern, European and Aglo-Saxon fingers as well. Microstation-ready japanese fingers can get a wrong impression from a touchscreen.

I didn't really measure the menus in millimeters, but the difference is immediate and intuitive.

The "fingernail" thing is a bit far-fetched: I keep my nails short for professional reasons, but the average non-chinese-mandarin male would have to keep his fingers bent (hence the menus hidden below the knuckles) in order NOT to touch the screen with the fingertips but only with the nails.

It's an intrument: IMHO I shouldn't neet a lancet in order to deal with it, especially live.

I'd happily trade the pictures and decorations for bigger characters. Who cares about a "smallstone" rendition in a rhodes program: let me know quickly and graphically which knobs control its effect.

Repeat: among 250 theoretical threads, this is MY personal evaluation.

That's true for the "very good" I found in the Kronos, it's true for the "average", and is true for the "slightly disappointing".

Finally: the demonstrator, poor thing... it's my fault.

I kept him at distance before he could inflict me one more rachmaninoff on the pianos and one more two-fisted chord on some polysix Ueber-polyphonic-unison Supersaw [boy is that huge...]

I needed to play my music with my sounds (or what I found to be the nearest to them among the presets. The signature Hancock EPs are a treat btw).

I wanted to simulate the first day alone with the thing, just after bodice-ripping her out of the the box, having thrown her on the bed without even reading the manual.

That's the moment when after 4 hours you say: "oh, s**t, 2 grands and this is gonna need EQing", or "I'll never use this unless somebody feeds me the manual by I.V."... and sometimes you just spend the night playing with the new friend, because it's just "it".

A good synth survives the experience and you take on it the day after.

Some go back to the shop soon. Not on the difficulty of advanced features (that's part of any advanced technology) but on the pet peeves: a loose joystick, noisy keys, lack of this lack of that, you know... Not that "she has bad breath", just... "she's too eager to get hold of the TV remote".

Must say that the Kronos survived the blind date + rape test. I'll call her tomorrow.

With some reserves (again: concrete reserves, not the generic "brass modeling" fantasy. I am talking business now: cost/convenience for my specific usage).

Forking 3.9 grands (euros, that means 5400 us$) requires a second date.

Unfortunately I have been told that NO WAY I'll get the manual before the machine is released in the shops.

[Unicorn]

Wind instruments are the most difficult to imitate WELL on a keyboard synth/sampler/modeler.

I agree. Heard Yamaha Tyros 4? Absolutely incredible sounds (saxophones, flutes, clarinet plus other stuff such as strings, guitars etc). KORG sounds like s**t as compared to this thing. I think they learnt how to sample and program pianos and analogue stuff with KRONOS/Oasys; not a bad start!

[kimu]

Ozy, we could have been to the same Kronos Demostrantion
if only i did not have to remain in office very late last friday

i would not ever say you are italian...

btw, thanks for you impression. Does Mirabella say anything about date of first shipping to shop?

so if i understand, on piano, EP, string and VA there 's huge improvement with respect to M3, while brass and winds still are not very high quality...
but compared to M3 PCM expansion, Kronos is similar or better the sample of M3 expansion?

the touchscreen says to what knobs are assigned for a given patch or we still we'll read Mod1, Mod2... as in M3/M50?

ADD: is it simple to change a preset, e.g. setting a modulation or korg kept the same old way to organize program pages (i HATE it!) ?

[jemkeys25]

it's starting not to sound to promising, especially for a 3000.00 price tag,my next board is between kronos and kurzweil PC3K7, and i'm starting to lean towards the kurz, which i figure could be around $500 cheaper.

[Citizen Klaus]

it's starting not to sound to promising, especially for a 3000.00 price tag

Based on one review of a preproduction unit?

I'm not disputing ozy's experience with the Kronos, but he has his own individual needs and priorities with respect to musical instruments. The Kronos might not have worked out for him, but it might be fantastic for others. I'd wait for some review consensus before passing final judgement.

Personally, my interest in the Kronos has nothing at all to do with brass and wind samples, and I've had no issues with the M3's touchscreen, so I'm still pretty excited. And if the build quality is at least on par with the M3 overall, then I figure I'll be a happy camper.

[spinoria]

Hi Ozy...

How would you rank the orchestra sounds, strings, winds, brass e.tc compared to the PC3?

[Bertotti]

Personally I want pianos organ and synth. We have a yamaha PSR-275 and that's it in this house! There is no way in Hell the Kronos won't dazzle us all with that point of reference. I just need to be careful because it is likely to be the only high dollar synth to hit our house for the rest of my life. Depending on the organs, I may still dream of the nord C2. I'm on the list, we'll see just how long we have to wait. I am way to excited to get bummed by winds and horns, worse comes to worse we'll eat beans and make our own sounds!

[burningbusch]

I bought my VL-1 in 1995 and worked with it extensively, hundreds of hours programming that thing with the Expert Editor. I believe I got the sax, flute, brass as far as it would go. Moving to the Korg models first with the OASYSPCI and then Triton/MOSS, I found them to be far less interesting. A few things were cool but the VL-1 has a depth of tone and programmability not found in the Korg models.

I had hopes for software-based wind/brass modeling but the Arturia Brass was a massive disappointment. The WIVI stuff, while better than Arturia, still lacks realism.

I do not feel you can achieve realistic results for saxes, brass, winds using pure modeling. They can be expressive as hell and a blast to play, but they all, including the VL-1, lack realism.

IMO, you can achieve quite realistic results using sampling or sample-based modeling. With Vienna Symphonic Library and their unique legato sampling you can get wonderful results especially with the woodwinds using a breath controller. Some of the articulations have to be done more manually. The other product is SampleModeling for saxes, trumpet and trombone. This technology combines sampling accuracy with modeling's expressiveness.

I did the example below in realtime with breath controller and the right hand doing sax while the left played Rhodes chords. The vibrato is actually done with the breath controller by changing amplitude quickly. My hands never have to leave the keys.
http://www.purgatorycreek.com/mp3/Dindi-sax1.mp3

As far as I'm concerned, you can't get sounds like the above out of any current workstation or arranger. It just ain't going to happen. So I'm not going to get bent out of shape if the Kronos, especially considering everything else it brings to the table, lacks some advanced brass/wind modeling. I need it to sound as good as what I can get with VSL and SampleModeling, otherwise I'm just not going to use it.

Also, there is a big difference between a solo brass/wind and an ensemble. Ensembles can be done VERY effectively using samples. All of those demos you find at VSL and East West for their symphonic libraries are 100% samples and most were put together very meticulously, e.g. three notes staccato, one sustain, now draw in the expression using a pencil on the screen. Very laborious but the results can be stunning. I think it's ridiculous to expect that by you can get realistic results for orchestral instruments by just playing them as you would a piano. You need to work to get amazing results.

From what I've heard from the OASYS EXs3 Brass/Winds, I think it's a VERY nice addition and very well done. Some of the Kurzweil brass is nice (french horns) but it lacks that epic brass sound. Yamaha, doesn't have it either.

Especially considering this is done in realtime with a single combi, I don't know what is wrong with the example below. It sounds great to me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6rffPtNNDU

Having played some with the OASYS EXs3 Brass/Wind, I am looking forward to it on the Kronos.

Busch.

[mkpcola]

I am following this thread.. and at the end... someone is praising how wonderful the other machine is...AS USUAL..

PLEASE....
Everything has learning curve.. using touchscreen is just that.
Complaining something before you can use properly is not fair at all...
Touchscreen is not an issue because I learned how to use it efficiently.

If you think you can not use touchscreen, move on.
And please don't buy touchscreen cell phones either. You simply can not use them.

[danatkorg]

Hi Ozy,

I completely understand and agree: you have a perfect right to your opinion. That's why I have not commented on your opinions at all; jut wanted to keep a few facts straight.

They should test the instruments with Latin, Middle-Eastern, European and Aglo-Saxon fingers as well. Microstation-ready japanese fingers can get a wrong impression from a touchscreen.

(Dan looks in the mirror just to make sure.)

Nope, as I thought, I'm a dark-blonde anglo California boy, born and bred, just shy of 6 feet tall.

Touch-screens can take a while to get used to. It took me a little while to get comfortable with using my iPod Touch, for example.

The "fingernail" thing is a bit far-fetched: I keep my nails short for professional reasons, but the average non-chinese-mandarin male would have to keep his fingers bent (hence the menus hidden below the knuckles) in order NOT to touch the screen with the fingertips but only with the nails.

I use my short fingernails on a routine basis with both the KRONOS and the OASYS, and it works quite well, no contortions necessary. Others at Korg take this approach, and most of us are also keyboard players. For best results, I'd strongly recommend giving this a try.

Unfortunately I have been told that NO WAY I'll get the manual before the machine is released in the shops.

Where did you hear that?