SSD Drive - Backup & Failure

rkuli · Post by **rkuli** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:33 pm

I'd like some additional information in regards to the SSD drive. In my limited understanding of drives, the SSD should be incredibly faster and able to take more abuse from bumps and shocks than the magnetic platters but I remember reading about a limited write to the SSD. Something I thought along the lines of it has a max number of times that it can be written to and that over time blocks of the storage will go bad (in terms of writing to it). With this in mind:

1) Does this mean over time our available storage incrementally decreases?

2) What happens when you can no longer write to the SSD? Does it prevent read access?

3) Is this going to be a non user servicable issue (thinking of app aluminum mac books where the battery isn't accessible and you are required to send to apple for replacement)? Of course some of this lends itself to other questions I've seen posted regarding whether or not we can upgrade the drives at a later point.....

4) I assume that our tweaks and changes to combis and the like are de minimis and that we won't come close to our max write limits but is that a correct assumption? What about users that are planning on a lot of sample importing and editing?

5) Backup - I believe I read that the rear USB ports can be used for backup which eases my mind to a degree but I would like to know a little more. I assume, the only thing being backed up are user banks, settings, samples, etc. and not the stock data. This brings me back to question 3 - if the drive goes bad. I do have some concerns that if GAS doesn't get the better part of me 5 or more years down the road and the next shiny new generation of boards are out - will i be able to get a replacement drive or will my machine be a bricked keybed (especially if the backup option doesn't allow for the stock data to be saved)?

RK

peter_schwartz · Post by **peter_schwartz** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:58 pm

I can't answer your technical questions, but I'll offer a perspective... It's simply "best practice" to always make backups. USB drives are so cheap these days, so there's almost no financial excuse for not making regular backups of your work. You can't trust any technology to last forever, regardless of whether it's SSD or tried-and-true hard drives. And when people post on forums complaining that they've lost months of work because their hard drives failed, I always end up feeling bad for them but at the same time I don't feel that much pity, because the means to preserve their work is so easily accessible/affordable and they just didn't do it.

So I think your questions are legit, but I just want to emphasize that failure of any storage technology to maintain its integrity indefinitely is never a legitimate cause for someone to then turn around and lambaste the manufacturer as a result. We live in a digital world and should understand the limitations.

DaveBoulden · Post by **DaveBoulden** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:24 pm

Peter, I think you may be missing the point. I think rkuli was asking whether it's actually possible to back-up everything from the SSD, OS and large "ROM" sample banks included, in case it reaches the end of it's read/write cycle life. I don't think the question was about whether or not to bak-up at all.

For instance, I used to own a Receptor and, whilst it was possible to back-up data, it was not possible to back-up the entire drive as that included the OS. To replace or upgrade a drive, you had to send back the original as you were not allowed acess to the OS partition.

peter_schwartz · Post by **peter_schwartz** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:39 pm

I might very well be missing the point. However, I still think it's worth emphasizing the fallibility of digital media if for no other reason to drive the point home to people who think that their digital storage media will last forever and a day.

GregC · Post by **GregC** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:09 pm

rkuli wrote:I'd like some additional information in regards to the SSD drive. In my limited understanding of drives, the SSD should be incredibly faster and able to take more abuse from bumps and shocks than the magnetic platters but I remember reading about a limited write to the SSD. Something I thought along the lines of it has a max number of times that it can be written to and that over time blocks of the storage will go bad (in terms of writing to it). With this in mind:

1) Does this mean over time our available storage incrementally decreases?

2) What happens when you can no longer write to the SSD? Does it prevent read access?

3) Is this going to be a non user servicable issue (thinking of app aluminum mac books where the battery isn't accessible and you are required to send to apple for replacement)? Of course some of this lends itself to other questions I've seen posted regarding whether or not we can upgrade the drives at a later point.....

4) I assume that our tweaks and changes to combis and the like are de minimis and that we won't come close to our max write limits but is that a correct assumption? What about users that are planning on a lot of sample importing and editing?

5) Backup - I believe I read that the rear USB ports can be used for backup which eases my mind to a degree but I would like to know a little more. I assume, the only thing being backed up are user banks, settings, samples, etc. and not the stock data. This brings me back to question 3 - if the drive goes bad. I do have some concerns that if GAS doesn't get the better part of me 5 or more years down the road and the next shiny new generation of boards are out - will i be able to get a replacement drive or will my machine be a bricked keybed (especially if the backup option doesn't allow for the stock data to be saved)?

RK

my experience with Korg w/s is that key components like this are going to be durable with high quality. Obviously they expect the Original mfg'r to live up to spec.

In the US, we have a standard 1 yr parts and labor warranty.

for what its worth, all my other drive mechanisms have lasted for several years without failure.

Thus, I expect the SSD drive to last several years.

rrricky rrrecordo · Post by **rrricky rrrecordo** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:53 pm

FWIW, the FDs in both my Trinity V3 and Kawai K5000s still work fine, and I got both instruments about the same time - the mid 90s. I don't think that Japanese manufacturers cheap out on storage components. Like Peter says though, backing up is essential. I learned this firsthand - the hard way!

DaveBoulden · Post by **DaveBoulden** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:47 pm

peter_schwartz wrote:I might very well be missing the point. However, I still think it's worth emphasizing the fallibility of digital media if for no other reason to drive the point home to people who think that their digital storage media will last forever and a day.

Absolutely... that can never be stressed often enough

DaveBoulden · Post by **DaveBoulden** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:51 pm

GregC wrote:...for what its worth, all my other drive mechanisms have lasted for several years without failure.

Thus, I expect the SSD drive to last several years.

I suspect the point has only been raised as SSDs (and all flash media for that matter) do have a finite number of guaranteed read/write cycles, much less than magentic media as used in conventional HDs... though I'm sure Korg will have taken this into consideration when compared to the expected lifetime of the instrument.

Bertotti · Post by **Bertotti** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:29 am

I don't care if it has a finite life cycle but I hope that end of the product life they would release for the users the data needed to reload to a new ssd when the time arrives. I for one will have mine a long time, probably the rest of my life, the Kronos for me will be a once in a life purchase, I would like to be able to keep it going.

dan88z · Post by **dan88z** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:32 am

Interesting stuff about SSD's here:
http://www.storagesearch.com/ssdmyths-endurance.html

danatkorg · Post by **danatkorg** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:15 am

Hi RK,

rkuli wrote:I'd like some additional information in regards to the SSD drive. In my limited understanding of drives, the SSD should be incredibly faster and able to take more abuse from bumps and shocks than the magnetic platters but I remember reading about a limited write to the SSD. Something I thought along the lines of it has a max number of times that it can be written to and that over time blocks of the storage will go bad (in terms of writing to it). With this in mind:

1) Does this mean over time our available storage incrementally decreases?

Storage decreases, very slowly, at the hardware level. However, standard practice with SSDs is to reserve a portion of the drive for this purpose - storage space that the user never sees, and which the drive controller uses to swap in for sectors that are no longer usable. For instance, the Toshiba SSD used in the KRONOS is spec'd at 30 GB, instead of 32. That puzzled me for a while, as 30 is a distinctly non-binary number and thus unlikely to reflect hardware. Then I realized that it was most likely 32GB physically, with a couple of GB reserved so that it could be swapped in later without shriking the size from the user perspective.

According to Toshiba, you'd need to write 11GB of data every day for five years to reach the "endurance limit" of the media.

So, In practice, this doesn't seem to be a concern.

rkuli wrote:2) What happens when you can no longer write to the SSD? Does it prevent read access?

The drive controller maps out bad blocks as necessary. This should be an invisible process from the user perspective.

rkuli wrote:3) Is this going to be a non user servicable issue (thinking of app aluminum mac books where the battery isn't accessible and you are required to send to apple for replacement)? Of course some of this lends itself to other questions I've seen posted regarding whether or not we can upgrade the drives at a later point.....

There are no user-serviceable parts inside the KRONOS. Any service would be at an authorized repair center.

rkuli wrote:4) I assume that our tweaks and changes to combis and the like are de minimis and that we won't come close to our max write limits but is that a correct assumption? What about users that are planning on a lot of sample importing and editing?

See above. According to the drive manufacturer, even writing and editing lots of samples should be fine.

rkuli wrote:5) Backup - I believe I read that the rear USB ports can be used for backup which eases my mind to a degree but I would like to know a little more. I assume, the only thing being backed up are user banks, settings, samples, etc. and not the stock data. This brings me back to question 3 - if the drive goes bad. I do have some concerns that if GAS doesn't get the better part of me 5 or more years down the road and the next shiny new generation of boards are out - will i be able to get a replacement drive or will my machine be a bricked keybed (especially if the backup option doesn't allow for the stock data to be saved)?

RK

The KRONOS will ship with DVDs which can completely restore all of the factory data. We did this with the OASYS as well.

The drive is an off-the-shelf part connected via SATA, so if replacement is eventually necessary, it should be easy to do.

Best regards,

Dan

Bertotti · Post by **Bertotti** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:24 am

Dan! great informattion thanks!

DaveBoulden · Post by **DaveBoulden** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:27 am

That's what you call a comprehensive answer! Thanks Dan.

BillW · Post by **BillW** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:49 am

Thanks, Dan.

rkuli · Post by **rkuli** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:22 am

Dan,

Thank you for taking the time to answer each and everyone of my questions. Exemplary service and builds confidence in your product and brand. I'm even more excited to get hold of my pre-order when shipped.

thx
RK

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