CAN KARMA DO THE SAME WORK AS AUTO ACCOMPANIMENT......

billbaker · Post by **billbaker** » Fri Mar 11, 2011 6:31 pm

Jake - -

1st - take nothing away from Yamaha - the playing sequences sound great. You may like all 6 or 10 you heard. They do follow, just like auto acompaniment. They do sound studio finished. If they impress you that much you're posting on the wrong site.

And...

Any shmoo who can press start can get the same results.

My problem (and, yes, this is just my viewpoint) is that there's no easy way to get that finished product varied or pared down to it's most basic functions. And the pre-sets, while very impressive, are just that pre-set; as in pre-determined; as in someone else decided how I should sound.

If there's a genre you like, that's well represented (say 30 performances) will they ALL be useable, unique, and suited to what you want to do? Can you add new patterns, build new performances and tame this beast and make it jump through hoops?

-------------

In M3 Korg's approach is multifaceted. You can have full-on KARMA, which (again my opinion) sounds just as good as any Yamaha demo sequence, with multiple scenes in the same preset, with interactive voicing and rhythms (KARMA again) that can be controlled real-time, with ability to simplify (still within KARMA) or take down to just Drum Track, plus what you do with your own hands as a player.

As a long time triton player I was seriously looking at the M3, just for the (very) expanded drum track function - throw in Karma on top of that and there's no contest. I got a TR-EX 'cuz I can make it roll over and beg, and because the price was too good to turn down. I may get an M3m for the same reason. But I'm really looking forward to the Kronos, because the SOUND is there, and so is the flexibility.

BB

jake519 · Post by **jake519** » Sat Mar 12, 2011 8:18 am

Ouchhh.........

friend, i know that the karma feature in the m3 is much-much-much GREAT than the arpeggiator in the motif keyboards. I think u did'n undrstnd what I meant.....
I am used with the auto accompaniment feature in the arrangers as i never owned a workstation or a synth keyboard before

..... So what I mean to say is ....would I be able to settle down with motif keyboards faster than i would with the m3....??? As u told ....KARMA is predictable IF PROGRAMMED but I am not at all used to programming......

On the other hand the arpeggiator is predictable without an programming AnD when combined with drum tracks they sound somewhat like the auto accomp. in the arrangers........
HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I MEAN TO SAY.....

billbaker · Post by **billbaker** » Sat Mar 12, 2011 12:12 pm

Jake -

If that came across as a lecture I sincerely apologize.

I enjoy programming.

I think everyone who reaches a certain level in their playing should get their feet wet. It is such a useful skill, and does so much to open up your sound that you should start right away. Or at least try.

I'm 55 this year and have been playing since I was 10. That means I started when "keyboards" meant pretty much piano or organ; Rhodes and Wurli were just beginning to make themselves felt. I remember when 'Switched on Bach' came out, and arguments with peers about "how they got that sound" on that and so many other records. Basically I've lived through the cusp of moving from acoustic to electronic in music making.

And I've been a professional player at a time when GAS actually had a purpose because there were quantum leaps being made in computing and synthesis that had real "game changing" impact, to borrow a phrase every couple of years; no memory to memory, no presets to presets, no sequencer to onboard sequencer...on-board drums... ROM-pling realism... USER sampling... the list goes on.

I think that if you get a board that has those features you should do what you can to learn how to use them - starting with what's useful to you.

that's a .. well, sermon if not a lecture....

-------------

As to your question of what would be faster for you -- the answer was hidden in my previous post. I think the M3 beats motif for ease of use and accessibility of those auto-accomp features you're most interested in. To me that translates as faster; for YOU? Well, I'm just giving my best guess and sharing it.

Learning more about programming would certainly help you get better results but its not required.

Neither M3 nor motif - at the level we're talking about - is quite the "push play and go" keyboard that most auto-accompaniment boards are. So you have to go into it with an open mind and determination.

It's worth the effort it in either case.

BB

jake519 · Post by **jake519** » Sun Mar 13, 2011 12:50 pm

WOW....Thank u very much.....
I undrstood it abt 60% now..THANKS.....

Ok .......ATLAST I HAVE DECIDED ONE THIN-GOIN TO BUY THE M3 as my 1st workstation........

But, Now also I am not even 80% confident abt buying the M3...because dont knw if I would have to struggle with it as it is totally diff. from the arrangers I am used to....MAY KARMA BLESS ME..... :'(

again the problem is with its PRICE.....BUT I have come across costs ranging from abt +2000$

but have seen prices much lower than it on the net(from wholesalers).....But dont know if there will be any risk with IMPORTING products from other countries (I am from INDIA)......

CAN U HELP ME OUT WITH THIS ?PLEASE........

.....

billbaker · Post by **billbaker** » Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:56 pm

New M3 prices (US) run from ~$1300 (M3m) to ~$2000 (M3-88). If you're looking globally you might also try Japan - many retailers have websites in English -- you might get a break buying closer (relatively) to home.

If you buy new off the internet from a retailer the RISK is fairly small - the factory boxes are built for shipping (double boxes, styro end caps, etc.) and insurance on shipments is a minimal cost. The dealer will also be more reliable, and depending on the return policy and maintenance policies you may receive more dependable customer service. Ask questions; tell them you're importing and ask them to clearly explain their policies.

Used gear has a higher risk of damage unless the original packaging is specified in the sale - but again, insurance of the package is the key.

All legitimate global shippers will offer insurance for the value of the package so there's no risk to you of damages that you cannot recoup. Generally this covers only physical damage (cracked end caps and broken knobs/joystick are typical damage from under-packed shipping). Proving the shipper is liable for non-functioning gear (internal damage) may be a problem.

You'd know better the import fees for India - don't be afraid to ask. Give them a price range of what you're spending; fees are usually a percentage of the price. If its used gear from a personal sale, say that, too. Be sure to specify that this is not part of an import business, but a one time import of musical instrument. You don't need an import license. You might also try contacting an actual import business to see if they can help - they have gone through the necessary licensing already and may be able to ease a one-time transaction.

BB

karmathanever · Post by **karmathanever** » Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:10 pm

Hi Jake

Firstly, I am nowhere near as synth-literate as the likes of Nedim & co... but I have owned the original Karma for a few years (just sold it) and just received my M3 (which I bought second-hand from a very reliable source). With Kronos on the edge of release and when the mass Kronos-buying-hysteria has subsided, there will most likely be a few M3s out there for sale and some dealers trying to move old stock.
So I guess it will depend on how long you can afford to wait if you want an "M3 bargain".
I have owned arrangers for many years and have the luxury of a PA2Xpro right now. Yes it is definitely true that Karma (M3) does not replace an arranger however it can come very close at times. As has been mentioned earlier above, the Karma technology takes some learning to use effectively but hey, you can get some astounding things happening with it.
If you need comprehensive arranger functionality then definitely go for an arranger like the PA2X/PA3X - add an M3 to that and the sky's the limit.

Good luck with your purchases

Pete

jake519 · Post by **jake519** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:15 am

May I ask one more question about the M3......

Does the drum tracks in there have any build in variations in them (like fill ins in arrangers)??? or they play the same pattern when played??

alland · Post by **alland** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:02 am

jake519 wrote:Does the drum tracks in there have any build in variations in them (like fill ins in arrangers)??? or they play the same pattern when played??

M3 Drum track does not have any "fills on demand" (by pressing buttons).
Some Drum Track sequences are pretty long (32 bars etc) and have some breaks/fills programmed into but they occur just when their time comes.

karmathanever · Post by **karmathanever** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:06 am

Hi Jake

As Alan says - nothing "on-demand" as such.
The Karma scenes and Karma GE controls can definitely bend drums in all directions depending on how that particular combi has been created. So the answer is "sort-of-yes" but the M3 definitely is NOT an arranger in the sense of INTROs, ENDINGs, FILLs and VARIATIONs.

I have played and recorded full songs with Karma combis (I mean in a "live" sense - not sequenced) so you can do it. The arrangers will immediately give you STYLE banks to go select your genre for the accompaniment - it is organised for that "one/two-man band". Karma (M3) is a workstation synth, but an amazing one!!!

To give you an example: when playing a combi (depending on its structure of course) you might do the following by tweaking Karma as you play - things like slowly changing the groove from straight to swing, adding/reducing complexity to various instruments and by changing Karma scenes, getting lots of variations.

Jake, if you can get someone (retailer etc) who knows a bit about the Karma technology to actually demonstrate it I think it will help your decision. You should find a fair bit on youtube and karma-labs website - it doesn't matter if it's the Karma keyboard or M3 - the concept is similar.

Good luck

Pete

BasariStudios · Post by **BasariStudios** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:15 pm

karmathanever wrote:I have played and recorded full songs with Karma combis (I mean in a "live" sense Jake, if you can get someone (retailer etc) who knows a bit about the Karma technology to actually demonstrate it I think it will help your decision.

That should be the LAST source one should look for authentic info...lol.

BillW · Post by **BillW** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:13 pm

BasariStudios wrote:
karmathanever wrote:I have played and recorded full songs with Karma combis (I mean in a "live" sense Jake, if you can get someone (retailer etc) who knows a bit about the Karma technology to actually demonstrate it I think it will help your decision.
That should be the LAST source one should look for authentic info...lol.

+1

ozy · Post by **ozy** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:23 pm

BasariStudios wrote:
karmathanever wrote:if you can get some retailer who knows a bit
That should be the LAST source one should look for authentic info

amen.

"you know, dude, I play keyboards in this band, right? I work here just to help my cousin, but I am really a pro musician. It's like - hey, you, kid, keep your hands off that piano, ok? I'll be with you in a minute! - I was saying, I play keyboards ih this band, we do some pink floyd and some dream Theater and other jazz things, I love jazz, and dubstep and ambient, mostly songs I write myself, and man... this thing [shows me a casio privia] has the best hammond emulation you can dream of".

I had entered the shop asking to test a cp1 and a cp5.

karmathanever · Post by **karmathanever** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:44 pm

I wrote:Jake, if you can get someone (retailer etc) who knows a bit about the Karma technology to actually demonstrate it I think it will help your decision.

OK maybe a stupid suggestion - I was lucky and had two guys (actually different retailers at that time) who knew a fair bit about the Karma - guess that doesn't happen too much.....

Pete

EJ2 · Post by **EJ2** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:40 pm

As I have continued to reply - KARMA is far and away beyond arpeggiators and arrangers. It can handle both of these functions and more, including intros, main theme presentations, bridges, recapitulations, codas, fade outs and more.

Here are just a few examples demonstrating what I am getting at, by none other than the creator of KARMA, Stephen Kay:

http://www.karma-lab.com/vp/klvp.html?ch=cat1

Yes, it does require that you have an in depth facility with KARMA Realtime Controls, whether they be on the old red Karma, KarmaTriton software, OASYS, M3, and soon the KRONOS, and KarmaMotif software. But, hey, the simple pressing of buttons on an arranger vs the more comprehensive array of controls on the aforementioned workstations is like comparing flying a Piper Cub with an Airbus. You can fly simple or complex...your choice. That's all I'm sayin'.

billbaker · Post by **billbaker** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:04 pm

Devil's Advocate for a moment.

The major makers do actually do a fair bit of training on their boards (exceptions to follow) for the larger retailer chains, for the sales personnel they feel are qualified, for the sales staff their managers care to send, for those who have an interest beyond their end-of-month sales tally and commission. Some sales guys are trained, are qualified, and are interested - but that's an intersection of three things not always part of the picture in a retail store.

Sometimes (more often than not for me) you luck out and get a guy who actually plays - often it's against HIS best interests to show you what you want on the first go; he's got that quota to make, and the value of HIS time is measured in cash in the box and gear out the door, HE needs the customer (YOU) to make a fist and decide to buy. That means, really, knowing pretty much what you want when you walk in.

"What's good for (genre of the day)...?" is too open ended. Often (if the boss is watching) he's not allowed to express a personal preference that isn't coincidentally supported by excess inventory.

He doesn't have time to educate you - and if you're a dabbler who'd be satisfied with the privia he'll be happy to sell you one and move on to the next chump.

Next time, come with an hour to spare and say, "Gimme some headphones" (better yet bring some over-the-ear cans or high-qual earbuds and an adapter jack), then when you're done exploring what you can [combis, progs, presets, demos, etc.] and if you're still interested, ask for help. If he can't give it, or re-directs, ask him to stick to this keyboard. If he won't, then walk out.

You won't have wasted his time (for which he should be grateful) or yours (if your decision NOT to buy saves you from buyer's remorse and your wallet from premature emptiness).

BB

You won't have used his time, and you will have still made a decision (not to buy is a decision) and you can move on to the next keyboard.

---------------

Even after you buy you'll have unanswered questions - hence this FORUM and many others - the salesguy is NOT generally the ultimate-grand-high-guru of synth knowledge.