Side step - Mac vs. Kronos

[aron]

I was unaware that Korg had released some of my most favorite synthesizers - Polysix, Mono/Poly, Wavestation as AU.

Now, consider a Macintosh with an SSD running Mainstage. Assuming you could protect it from the elements enough to use, would that be a viable contender to the Kronos? Not so much as a sequencer type machine, but for live performances.

Just wondering if anyone here has used the AU plug ins and could comment...

Thanks!

[GiantSonicRobot]

Now, consider a Macintosh with an SSD running Mainstage. Assuming you could protect it from the elements enough to use, would that be a viable contender to the Kronos? Not so much as a sequencer type machine, but for live performances.

I've been using various Powerbooks and MacBookPros live on stage for well over five years. (My current machine does have an SSD.) Originally I was using Logic, but about a year after the first version of MainStage came out, I migrated to that.

I mainly use the plugins provided with Logic, such as EXS24, ES2, EVB3 etc., but the ability to use more specialized third party plugins when needed is a great plus. (I use e.g. Minimonsta for Moogy stuff and FM8 for DX-ish sounds)

It definitely has its virtues. Once you get familiar with MainStage, it is a very elegant and vastly powerful environment. Also, getting to the rehearsals by bike with just a laptop in a backpack is a breeze.

But ... there are drawbacks.
For once, there are issues with the reliability of MainStage2, so I am still stuck with the older MainStage1. Apple knows about the specific problem, but it hasn't been fixed yet, and the kind of support they offer may be OK for things like iTunes or iMovie, but for professional software like MS it is definitely substandard. Also, it is in the nature of open systems like AU or VST that certain problems may arise where no-one takes responsibility: The manufacturer of the host application blames it on the third-party plugin manufacturer, who in turn blames it on the driver for the audio interface ... you get the idea.

Taking all this into account, I find that despite all the theoretical power which an open system like MainStage can provide, a "closed" and integrated system which simply just works does have a strong appeal.
So after more than five years of using software on stage, I have finally decided that I will migrate back to a pure hardware solution within this year. Kronos is a major candidate. (I will thoroughly check it out at Musikmesse tomorrow.)

[aron]

>So after more than five years of using software on stage, I have finally decided that I will migrate back to a pure hardware solution within this year. Kronos is a major candidate. (I will thoroughly check it out at Musikmesse tomorrow.)

That's kind of what I thought as well. Can't beat plugging in 1 power cord and 1 audio cable.

However, I figured maybe with the advent of SSD it might be worth it. Once I realized that the legacy plug ins were available, it kind of made me do a double take. Have you tried the legacy plug ins with Mainstage? Just wondering.

[GiantSonicRobot]

However, I figured maybe with the advent of SSD it might be worth it.

The SSD works well for me. The main advantage is it's resistance to all kinds of vibrations, so you don't have to worry about the bass drum sending shock-waves through the stage. (I have heard stories from other musicians who had trouble with standard hard drives going nuts on noisy stages.)

Once I realized that the legacy plug ins were available, it kind of made me do a double take. Have you tried the legacy plug ins with Mainstage? Just wondering.

Sorry, I haven't used the legacy plugins.

[peter_schwartz]

Computers are inherently flaky. And if you don't set them up just right they can glitch on you in the middle of a set. That's not to say that keyboards don't ever go down, but the chances of dedicated hardware going down are much much less . Keep in mind that audiences are not forgiving of a computer malfunction. They're there to be entertained, not hear excuses like "sorry ladies and gentlemen, but my computer crashed".

If you were to use a computer for live, here's my advice:

1) once you get a working system, never EVER update it. Stability is the most important aspect of a live system run from computers, and updates to the OS or anything else (and I do mean anything) can potentially destabilize your system. Software updates are not always benign.

2) if at all possible, use a computer that you dedicate 100% to music playback for your live gigs. Don't use it for 10 million other things.

3) if your computer has an Airport or other wireless capability, make sure it's turned off when you gig. And disable any other apps or background processes that might want to connect to the internet in the middle of your set, like (on Mac) software update, or Date & Time.

4) buy and (yes) lug around a UPS (uninterruptible power supply) and run your gear off of this. Must be a UPS and not a surge protector. They're not the same thing. In fact, I'd recommend exactly the same approach for running a keyboard rig, whether it's Kronos or something else.

HTH,

PS

[aron]

Thanks Peter! Good points. I have been using a computer on stage since Personal Composer, so yeah, no problem with the gotchas! hehehe

I was just wondering if the legacy collection was any good with MainStage. In my case I would use a dedicated Macintosh with SSD. I'm still 90% leaning towards the Kronos (have it reserved), but most of my enthusiasm was due to the Polysix and MS-20 along with the DX7 modes. But when I realized it was possible _now_, then I have to give it due consideration.

The Macintosh live is a formidable synthesizer, but one big problem was the hard drive (which is fixed with SSD).

I think a Macintosh setup running Mainstage with a good controller could be a great live setup. Also consider Autosampler and this could be a great system to replace what I have now.

[cachete1966]

Hi....
beetwen 2003 and 2008 i played with vst live......

but the classical problems...

its not friendly split or layers one vst with another.... (not mentions multiples splits/layers)

and yes... two times the (and computer only for that... ) the system crahs...

and.... uups...!! sorry.!

In the 2008 i return to hardware keys.
I use a M3 expanded with 256mb extra.
and its very very good for me.
I can create combis for songs (with or without splits or layers)
and i use the slider and buttos to mix and on an off the different sound in the song.

The Kronos its a very good choice to work live. (studio off course)
andi will go for it...!!

the kronos like a masterpiece of your system.

ex: a 88 keys controller botton with the kronos pianos and strings, and the top... the kronos with cx3 or analog leads...

The most important (sound of course) is how many options do you have to work.
The combi (with 16 programs) its a big deals.
and not cutoff with the changes.... cool..!

But... when you touch with virtuals (with computers) and another keyboard player use a hardware key....

the virtuals sound good but not fat and pounch... (yes... use a console, compressors, eq, and many extras and money and pounds...)

The keyboard (its my opinions) hardware
still the best choice.!!

Outside... when you hear a band with:
2 guitars, bass, drums, percusion and a keys with virtuals..... if you dont have control over the mix....
nobody hear you.

The others instruments pass over you.!!

with a hardware keys... its the reverse situation.!!

[theshinenz]

I was using mainstage 2 for about six months before flagging it altogther, now I run my Kurz PC3 with an alesis fusion on top which i will be replacing with a kronos when they finally arrive.

The main issue I have is the sound, I was running a presonus firestudio interface with my macbook and no matter what I tried the sound was just so thin compared to my Kurzweil, I figure maybe if you have a very expensive interface it may be different but then whats the point it'll cost more to have a decent macbook and interface than a Kronos, I also had an m3 w hile back which was pretty good but now look forward to a Kronos.

Yes mainstage did crash occasionally but that wasn't my main issue, it is definately no where on par with the dedicated workstations I have tried, I don't know why but my ears definately hear the difference, by admission I think i am pretty fussy with sound....someone else may be able to comment otherwise, but I will not go back to laptop/vsti's until i can get close to the sound on the Kurzweil..plus is looks better having two tares of synths rather than a laptop

[aron]

I hear you. I found the opposite. When I was using my sampled grand sounds with my Mac Mini, I got a lot of compliments on the sounds I was getting. OTOH, I do not find my PC3 to be terribly "fat" sounding. In fact, if anything it's more of a "smaller" spread in terms of stereo width and in general. Listen to the Kronos demos that Korg made and then listen to the PC3 demos right after that. You can really hear how much smaller the PC3 sounds. Yes, maybe due to effects etc... but the basic overall sound seems smaller to me.

At the time I was running in stereo so my sound was great. Now I am running in mono so the Kronos might very well sound much better than the Mac.

Recently I brought my S90 to the gig, and everyone that has played with me since I have had my PC3 said "where was that thing all this time". They thought it sounded so much better than the PC3. I just laughed and layered my 4 voices w/very little loss of polyphony on the PC3.

What I want is layering. So the Korg can do it, Macintosh can do it, and now I guess the Jupiter 80 can. My PC3 already does it, but I cannot live with the unreliable hardware.

[EvilDragon]

My PC3 already does it, but I cannot live with the unreliable hardware.

Sorry to hear you had troubles with your PC3. My PC3K performs flawlessly!

[aron]

Yes, there are PC3s out there that work well, but it doesn't take much to find the ones that are not. In addition, there are admitted reliability problems with the existing features. Again, no need to go very far until you hear the admin of the forum telling you that you might be ____ for using a major feature in the keyboard. This is my second PC361, because the first one was somewhat DOA. My friend also got one bad from the beginning.

Most of the existing tech support was let go - I talked to one of the top guys and heard things that I don't want to repeat.

I love the idea of the PC3 and I still have my K2000, but after what I went through the other night... it was just the end for me. At this point, I am looking for the way out.

I've worked with most of the major manufacturers in the past and they are great people. I hope the Kronos proves to be as reliable as the keyboards I have purchased in the past. Most of my keyboards just fall apart after a while because I gig with them so much.

[MoonMusic]

I just got the entire Legacy bundle this week for $199 (package deal from the web site)....It was an instant download so I was enjoying the M1/T series within the hour of purchasing it .....I just found out they FINALLY did away with the USB Key thing so I could no longer resist.....I'm very new to the mac world so I can't really give any real reliability feedback other than to say for the hours I've put into learning Logic Pro 9 and sound synths, It hasn't crashed yet on a new MB pro running Snow Leopard.....Even though I have Main Stage installed, I haven't looked at it yet as recording is my main objective so Logic has been my main focal point....I also got all the Ensoniq/Emu Soundfont packs at Digital Sound Factory which works wonderful in the EXS24 sampler....I'm currently sampling a few of my hardware workstations via Sample Robot and saving those as soundfonts to be able to use in EXS24 as well....I find it incredible that you can fit all these great synth sounds into a laptop in this day and age....The amount of synths I've got in it already would fill a large room not to mention all the sounds that came with Logic....My only concern will be when I finally try a project with all those instruments running, will it sink or swim?......This is where I may end up getting a Kronos anyway to help ease up some of the processing chores by using it as a plug in....Probably doesn't answer your question but that's my take on it so far....Good Luck.....moon

[nowtime]

I hope to one day move to Kore/Komplete. For now, Kronos will be my root. With that in place, I can experiment with Native Instruments and a new quad-core MBP, and see how stable it is. I hear great things about Kore. But kronos with Set List Mode is a god-send. Can't believe it has taken so long for this most obvious implementation.

[aron]

Moon,

How is the latency with the legacy? Very interesting. I kind of want the Mono/Poly again.

[MoonMusic]

I'm getting very low latency with all Legacy/instruments/effects with the dual core MB Pro w/4gig RAM.....It's not quite as easy on the CPU as an EXS24 instrument but it's still very good....As stated before, I'm not sure what's going to happen when I start stacking a lot of tracks but I've tried 7-8 track demos and it played back fine without having to freeze any tracks....It's going to be awhile before I get a chance to try anything substantial because I'm sampling the hardware pretty hard at the moment....Logic/MB Pro will definitely be my future for a studio for quite some time....I'm sure it's only a matter of time till I can wirelessly sync my Ipads/pods as instruments within Logic too....I've already got an Ipad app that let's me control Logic start/stop/record/etc like a remote control....Mac is going to kill PC from a music stand point....They are already several laps ahead in the race....As long as they don't run out of gas or blow a tire, they are going to win big time....This coming from a lifelong PC musician until 3 months ago......moon