RH3 KEYBED

[Akos Janca]

Akos Janca wrote,

When I say "triggering" I don't mean the technical details. I mean the full way how the sound is created - the whole process from the moment you touch the key until you finally hear the sound.

That's why it's pointless to say "this keybed is good in itself, and that is not good". It always also depends on which instrument includes that keybed - because the sound modules are also different: one is more sensitive, the other is less sensitive, etc.

Yes, I'm very curious about this. In one of the demo videos by Rich for the Kronos, he talked getting together with top players to get the FEEL for particular sounds mapped? to the keybed so that it sounds/feels real.

I've heard people who talk about liking a particular sound from one keyboard a lot more once it was routed to another keyboard.

How is this done, that a given sound can feel real under your fingertips, or not, depending on how they've mapped it? Is it just getting the velocity split points right? And the velocity curves?

It's pure magic. And a biggest secret in MI industry.

It depends on the velocity split points, the velocity curves, the keybed mechanics itself, the electric parts that "transform" the key movements to MIDI signals, then the sound source etc. Every little details are important in the process - and they might be different in each instrument.

Another example: suppose you like your Steinway piano as it is. Now remove the keyboard and put it into a Bösendorfer. 1. Will you have the same "feeling" when playing the same keyboard? Certainly not. 2. Will you be satisfied with what you hear, will it be good? Maybe yes! You know only if you try it.

"The Best Universal Keybed" (that is perfect to imitate any instrument, triggering any sound from any synth module), unfortunately, doesn't exist.

However, there are good approaches - and RH2, RH3 are amongst the best ones. An interesting alternative solution is the VAX77, for example.

At the end of the day, it's all very subjective.

[Oboemd]

here's my take
Sometimes the initial attack may be too fast, even before the key reaches the end of its travel, or too late. Sometimes a slow key press may produce a sound with an unrealistic loud attack, or the wrong volume. On a piano you can press a key so softly as to get no sound, slightly brushing a key should make no sound. With an organ-like response, a key hit softly, or brushed speaks just like a key pressed hard intentionally.
There are many variables in getting the feel/playability right. For me, the Oasys did not have the optimum piano feel when playing its piano sounds. The Yamaha motif xs8 was better, as are many dedicated piano keyboards. My hope is that the Kronos keys will connect well with its piano sounds.
Gosh if it beats the Roland V-piano and Yamaha cp1 in this area along with its great sounds and the most user friendly workstation interface. It will do extremely well.

[Randelph]

QUESTION:
How is this done, that a given sound can feel real under your fingertips, or not, depending on how they've mapped it? Is it just getting the velocity split points right? And the velocity curves?

Akos wrote:
It's pure magic. And the biggest secret in MI industry.

It depends on the velocity split points, the velocity curves, the keybed mechanics itself, the electric parts that "transform" the key movements to MIDI signals, then the sound source etc. Every little details are important in the process - and they might be different in each instrument.

Oboemd wrote:
There are many variables in getting the feel/playability right. For me, the Oasys did not have the optimum piano feel when playing its piano sounds. The Yamaha motif xs8 was better, as are many dedicated piano keyboards. My hope is that the Kronos keys will connect well with its piano sounds.
Gosh if it beats the Roland V-piano and Yamaha cp1 in this area along with its great sounds and the most user friendly workstation interface. It will do extremely well.

So this begs the question:

? How much of that is UNCHANGEABLE, like the keybed, and various components/sensors that relay the touch response, AS COMPARED TO what is programmed by Korg: the selectable velocity curves, where the velocity split points are set, the envelopes, and anything else that is changeable AFTER it leaves the factory.

This is all the more of vital interest because of the +9 GBs dedicated to streaming piano sounds! That'll be a major draw from many quarters.

What I've heard from many online postings is that the RH3 action is superb (and of course, without necessarily knowing it, they are also commenting not only on the keybed feel, but on the playability that's part of this larger question we're discussing).

So, two out of three for piano playing: top notch sounds and a good keybed. The only remaining question is how 'playable' these piano sounds are because of the extra tweaking Korg has done to make it feel "real". I suppose with all the parameters available with SGX-1, you'll be able to fine tune some of this yourself, and of course find a velocity curve that suits you.

I imagine this'll be a large part of deciding on the 73/88 note or 61 note for a lot of people. If the "playability" is on a par with the keybed and sound quality, that'll tip the scales in favor of buying one of the bigger boards. The fact that they made the 73 note board weighted gives me the clue that they're pretty confident in what the playing experience will be!

I've got a Nord Stage 88, which I like a lot for playing piano [and its scheelpability: 40 pounds in a steel case and as long as most 76 note boards! makes a difference!].
My original thought was to get the 61 note Kronos for its light weight and synth action (to complement the weighted keys on the Stage), but if they get 3 out of 3 right on this one it'll be tough to pass up the weighted key Kronos!

Time will tell- which one are you likely to get?

[Hal2001]

It looks like the first of the 73/88 are going to start shipping in the next week. Mine is on pre-order since April until Aug/Sep. If anyone gets their hands on the 73/88 keybed, kindly report on the keybed issues already discussed. This will be my first Korg and I'm quite concerned about getting a quality keybed, not just the action, but having no undexpected side effect sounds or even irregular spacing between the keys. I played the Kronos 61 and it was excellent. When I saw irregular key spacing in a low end Yammy, I called Y and they said the irregular spacing between B and C (up and down a 61 keys) could be due to the way they drop in the keyboard octave segments, and they said I could exchange it if I wanted. It looked cheap but did not affect performance, so I kept it, but it WAS a cheap board, and I knew it. I don't even know if Yammy's explanation for the spacing was legitimate. When I sat down at a Motif XF8 (my main consideration before pre-ordering Kronos 88, the XF spacing was perfect like a Swiss watch. It was like my Fantom X8. You could measure it with a caliper and get the same result across 88 keys. So yes, at this price level I tend to expect more and look closer. So, if the keybed on Kronos is irregular in spacing or if there are superfluous sounds emitted, it's going to tick me off. I already swallowed the Kronos cooling fan sound pill and convinced myself that the features/benefits of the total board will be worth it and I'll have to make an effort to ignore it, even if I need to wear headphones to forget about it. I heard it on the 61 and would rather it not be there at all. Remember, part of what makes music is the space between the notes, and that's silence. Without silence, there would be no music. So, if I take a break from heavy rock and want to do my meditative spacey ethereal kind of music (which is a big reason what I want the Kronos for, the unbelievable Oasys type pads etc), and if I can't enjoy the silence too, it's a little less than a pure Zen of playing keyboard experience IMHO. But, I know I can't always have it all. So, I'm going to keep my fingers crossed and hope that they got it completely right with the new 88 keybed and await your reports. I don't think I'm asking for too much. Thanks much.

[fclef]

Received my Kronos 73 from American Music Supply on Tuesday. After a few days of experimentation, I can attest that it is a joy to play and will take much time to investigate all its features.
That said, the keybed appears to be rock-solid. As stated in earlier posts, the fundamental differences between weighted and non-weighted claviers should be self-evident. Compared to my Triton 76, there's much less chance for triggering clams and I prefer the weighted action for much of my work.
On another topic, I'm not understanding all the flap about fan noise. The fan in my Kronos is only evident if I place my ear directly above the keybed which I rarely do.
And off-topic, it took me a while to get Sonar X1 to recognize the USB audio for input. Discovered that you have to use the MME driver mode. After changing that setting, the audio recording works perfectly.
(If anyone is looking for an instrument definition for Sonar, I've created a partial one that includes all the factory programs and controllers.)
Before I received my Kronos, I read with interest many commens on this new board from many sources. The one set of comments that puzzled me came from people dissing the quality of Korg instruments. Over the years I've owned a DS-8, an M1, a T3, an O1/W, a Trinity, a Triton Studio and two Extremes. Not one of these has ever failed me.

[rwp42]

I picked up my Kronos-88 last night. For reference, I am coming from Roland Fantom-G8, whose action I really like a lot. I did not like the RH2 action in previous Korgs (one reason I went with Fantom at the time).

My K88 does not have any unusual key clicky noises, the fan is quiet, and while there are very slightly larger gaps between some of the keys, I have to really examine the keyboard to see them.

It feels fantastic to me -- esp. when coupled with the new piano samples.

Of course, keybeds are like chairs. There is no one chair that is comfortable to everyone. They are highly subjective objects. Best advise is to actually play one before you purchase.

RwP

[Mystic38]

The RD700GX and NX have an excellent weighted key action... I mean, like a real JOY to caress...The RH3 IMO is just "nice", like the S70XS... so if you consider the RH3 the "best you have played" then its just likely you have not played the RD700NX

M50-88 also uses RH3. All very subjective, I know, but for what it's worth, it's BY FAR the nicest weighted keyboard I've played...

All very subjective, as you say. Have you tried a Roland RD700?

No. You like it, I presume?

[Chriskk]

Fatar keybeds are a hit or miss in terms of reliability. Some last for a long time. Others fail prematurely.

[Bruce Lychee]

The RD700GX and NX have an excellent weighted key action... I mean, like a real JOY to caress...The RH3 IMO is just "nice", like the S70XS... so if you consider the RH3 the "best you have played" then its just likely you have not played the RD700NX

I had the G8 and have played the 700NX quite a bit. The actions on both are great but Roland definitely has an issue with their keytops wearing down and showing dirt prematurely. It doesn't happen on every unit but it happens on many of them and is still happening on the V-piano and 700NX. It happened on my G8 and every display 700NX and GX at the local Guitar Center has had the problem. I'm sure Roland is aware of the issue but they haven't seemed to resolve it or are just stuck with inventory. At least in most cases they seem to be replacing the tops. Fine actions nonetheless and some people like the feel of the worn keys.

I just sold my CP1 and loved the action. For the piano purist, the action on the Kawai MP10 is great too.

I have played the SV1 and RH3 seemed to be a step below all the actions mentioned above. I'm a little concerned about the action on the 88, but as long as it doesn't have quality or durability issues, I can live with the less refined action... I hope.

[madbeatzyo111]

As has been mentioned many times already, weighted hammer action feel is totally subjective. What you like I may not like, etc. It really depends on what your history is with weighted hammer actions. Did you start out playing acoustics? If so, was it Steinway, Yamaha, Kawai, Baldwin? Was it an upright or grand? Your history will determine what your preference is. I guarantee you that two people who share the same history will have the same preference.

But consider this scenario. If someone gave you a Steinway or Bosendorfer concert grand and you happened not to prefer its key action, what would you do? Would you turn your nose down at it? Of course not, you'd damn well get used to it!

In my opinion, Korg/Roland/Yamaha all know how to make hammer actions that simulate that of acoustic pianos very well. If you don't happen to like a keyboard's hammer action but like everything else about the keyboard, chances are you'll get used to it eventually and may even come to prefer it in the future.

Edit: Personally I find the RH3 acceptable, but I prefer Roland's. Yamaha's I find are generally too heavy (except for the ones on the MOX8/XF8). It's strange because Yammie's acoustic grands are not as heavy as their digital pianos.

[EXer]

Remember, part of what makes music is the space between the notes.
Without silence, there would be no music.

____...




_

[Bruce Lychee]

Edit: Personally I find the RH3 acceptable, but I prefer Roland's. Yamaha's I find are generally too heavy (except for the ones on the MOX8/XF8). It's strange because Yammie's acoustic grands are not as heavy as their digital pianos.

Have you played a CP1 or 5? The action is one of the lightest available. Definitely lighter than the Roland action.

[theescapist]

Has anyone directly compared the RH3 actions in the SV-1 and the Kronos? I've only had the chance to play with the 61-key Kronos (and now I really want one ) but from my limited experience the RH3 keybed on the SV-1 feels like a step down from my Roland 700NX...

(Yeah, they're both RH3, but the 700NX and V-Piano share the same action on paper too, and I could tell the difference between them..)

[madbeatzyo111]

Have you played a CP1 or 5? The action is one of the lightest available. Definitely lighter than the Roland action.

Their latest stage pianos are definitely very nice. They've improved quite a bit in the last 4-5 years. I still feel the latest RD700 has the edge though.

[madbeatzyo111]

Has anyone directly compared the RH3 actions in the SV-1 and the Kronos? I've only had the chance to play with the 61-key Kronos (and now I really want one ) but from my limited experience the RH3 keybed on the SV-1 feels like a step down from my Roland 700NX...

(Yeah, they're both RH3, but the 700NX and V-Piano share the same action on paper too, and I could tell the difference between them..)

Well, most other keybeds are going to feel like a step down if you're comparing against the RD700

You're right about Roland, I can also feel slight differences in different keyboards with supposedly the same action. However, Korg seems to be more consistent in this regard; for example, the M50 and M3 both felt identical to me (both RH3). I'm guessing the SV-1 and Kronos feel very close to those as well.