Won't Get Fooled Again ?( Filters + LFO's etc.)

newguy2008 · Post by **newguy2008** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:04 am

Can anyone help me get the sound for "The Who" song "Won"t Get Fooled Again"? ( Yeah, I know...my apostrophes are not working on my computer keyboard).

I seem to have some confusion with filters and LFOs and assigning them correctly on THIS MACHINE!

I KNOW I need to send an organ to a lowpass filter that lets me use LFO modulation. for the filter sweeping effect.....I just can not seem to DO IT! ( I do not seem to be "sweeping" the filter enough or SMOOTHLY ...its really long and shallow with a quick "whosh" sorta...NOT long and smooth..OR DEEP).

I seem to have a deep misguided set of terminology that is not "translating" to what I need to do on the "O". ( VCFs, filters, LFOs and how they work on the "O"....how to get one to the other and control it effectively!

I ALSO know that I then need to send it to another filter with an LFO square wave and the cutoff set from closed to open ( I seem to be able to do THIS..but it appears that I am doing it "backwards" for some reason!...i.e. I can not seem to get the filter sweep FIRST and THEN the square LFO cutoff effect.

Can you walk me through this?

Can you tell me WHERE to GET the sound? ( I would obviously like to learn how to do it RIGHT!?!?!!!!)

All help is deeply appreciated..

stupid, stupid, stupid...

humbly,
the "New Guy"....

thekeymaster · Post by **thekeymaster** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:28 am

Err actually I would be interested in how to do this as well because I thought it was achieved using the drawbars on the organ.......in realtime creating tonal changes that way.

r12 · Post by **r12** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:33 am

no, it's a realtime sweeping low pass filter

you can sweep it with lfo or controler

thekeymaster · Post by **thekeymaster** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:32 pm

So is that how they do it live cause I could have sworn at LIVE 8 when they played it they were using a proper organ with drawbars....I'm gonna have to check.Thats how I was imitating it when I tried it a while back...it sounded great with CX-3.

Thanks for the tip anyway..will try set it up.

Actually here ya go

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=zydAs5bRW1U

At the beginning and 6:58 secs in...

tonybanks · Post by **tonybanks** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:59 pm

seems there's a first hand info (hello Pete!) here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEPSruBdSqk

cannot hear what he plays (here at work) but it should be THAT.
A nice occasion to see an impressive array of rare old vintage analog synths (2500, VCS3, 2600)

sirCombatWombat · Post by **sirCombatWombat** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:13 pm

Nice coincidence that he used the S&H, the example I made for the program integration with MS-20 is quite easy to adapt to do just that.
Take the MS-20 S&H program I made, disconnect the S&H clock source and patch the Modulation Generator square wave out to EG1 Trig in,
and EG1 out to S&H Clock in. Then on the modulation page adjust the Frequency and EG1 Release time to taste.
Then on the MS-20 S&H Example combi put the organ of your choice to timbre 1 and adjust the timbre 1 volume so it does not clip in the MS-20.
Then you can patch in the MS-20 hi pass filter with LFO, or use IFX.
The benefit here is that you can switch organs at will if you need.
The file is here: http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=33746

Damn I hate erasing a bank for storing a single sound, please Korg make an option to store single progs and combis to disk.
It would be so easy to just save it and post it here..

thekeymaster · Post by **thekeymaster** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:34 pm

Bargain!!! Thanks for the you tube link........Now who feels like the fool...hahahahahahahah ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

dhjdhj · Post by **dhjdhj** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:57 pm

I just reconstructed the sound in a way similar to how he did it, although I used software versions of the synths in question (a Native Instruments B4 going into an Arturia 2600). It took a minute or two to set it up with one LFO (triangle or sine) sweeping the VCF and another (square) retriggering a simple envelope that controls VCA.

Two questions:
1) Starting from scratch, how hard would it be to do this on the Oasis?
2) Anyone know the actual drawbar settings?

tonybanks wrote:seems there's a first hand info (hello Pete!) here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEPSruBdSqk

cannot hear what he plays (here at work) but it should be THAT.
A nice occasion to see an impressive array of rare old vintage analog synths (2500, VCS3, 2600)

Kerzwhile · Post by **Kerzwhile** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:30 pm

Just Get A Kurzweil K2600!! Its a preset!!

dhjdhj · Post by **dhjdhj** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:32 pm

That's what I sold to get the Oasys (grin)

Kerzwhile wrote:Just Get A Kurzweil K2600!! Its a preset!!

Trommis · Post by **Trommis** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:22 am

Kerzwhile wrote:Just Get A Kurzweil K2600!! Its a preset!!

You can also get the "new" Kurzweil PC3/PC3X. It's pre-loaded there as well. I've got one (PC3) in addition to my OASYS 88. -Works great together!

pandel · Post by **pandel** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 2:45 pm

dhjdhj wrote:I just reconstructed the sound in a way similar to how he did it, although I used software versions of the synths in question (a Native Instruments B4 going into an Arturia 2600). It took a minute or two to set it up with one LFO (triangle or sine) sweeping the VCF and another (square) retriggering a simple envelope that controls VCA.

Two questions:
1) Starting from scratch, how hard would it be to do this on the Oasis?
2) Anyone know the actual drawbar settings?

tonybanks wrote:seems there's a first hand info (hello Pete!) here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEPSruBdSqk

cannot hear what he plays (here at work) but it should be THAT.
A nice occasion to see an impressive array of rare old vintage analog synths (2500, VCS3, 2600)

Oh man! I'm just starting to learn all that stuff with the arp2600... Would you mind placing a screenshot of your arturia settings somewhere? It would be soooo helpful! PLEASE!

I have to somehow recreate a similar setup for The Who's "Who are you", but on stage using a laptop, some soundbanks and the arturia arp 2600. I have something, that sounds ok, but what you said sounds much more promising to me!!!

Many thanks and a nice weekend!!!

jg:: · Post by **jg::** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:46 am

To me, the two examples sound fundamentally different.

The Pete Townsend original, as he demonstrates in the old video, is clearly sustained organ chords with the synth providing gating and filtering.

But Rabbit playing at Live 8 sounds as though he is re-triggering chords on the organ for every beat. You can hear the Hammond percussion every time! And see his hands moving on every beat on those occasional camera shots. And it sounds as though there's some two-handed melodic movement from time to time. On top of that, a resonant filter is providing the required tonal shifting. Even though you see him changing drawbars a little, drawbars won't give that distinctive resonant filter sweep.

Just thought I'd throw some extra spice into this never-ending discussion. :-]

jg::

cprignon · Post by **cprignon** » Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:04 am

Hello, i'm looking for this patch for a Radias. Were can i found it ? Tahnk you

c.prignon@ulg.ac.be

McHale · Post by **McHale** » Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:30 am

To make this patch quickly, find an appropriate organ patch, add some reverb, use a wah pedal and set it to auto-wah (they did it live this way for a while) and use an arp or KARMA to repeat the notes. It's the best way to keep the on/off of the notes in sync when you change chords.

-Mc