Piano sounds in loud band context

jimknopf · Post by **jimknopf** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:59 am

While everybody is right to agree that the Kronos Pianos are easily the best and most authetic sounding pianos in any actual synth or even compared to most of the stage pianos, there is one problem left which the factory patches don't solve: they are not opimised for loud band rehearsal play and gigging. Since I am a free time musician besides my main profession, I play only casual gigs, but I heard that complaint confirmed by more than one regularly gigging musician: you don't hear yourself precisely, and the band doesn't either. This can heavily influence timing security and expressivenes of play.

What I do are three things:

1. Selecting the Japanese Grand instead of the German Grand for anything beyond solo play, ballads and jazz trio kind of stuff.

2. Try to get a little bit less mid range and more presence by EQing (still trying to find the best settings)

3. After EQing normally a piano will cut through better, but now you will miss some substance and perceive it as somehow thin. Now you use the "Xaver Fischer trick"

I got this great, really well working tip from this German Keyboarder I know. Meanwhile he has published this tip in a German musician's portal here:
http://www.bonedo.de/artikel/einzelansi ... uehne.html
I include the link, because it contains a sound example

To summarize the essentail point:
- Xaver Fischer mixes a Wurly sound subtly into his EQed Piano sound, to give it back the warmth and bottom it needs, without getting the typical muddy midrange of many pure piano sounds when they are heavily amplified. This way the Piano cuts through without sounding thin.

You will find an example with a Roland piano sound at the bottom of the article:
- first you hear the piano
- then the piano with the mixed in subtle Wurly sound
- then the raw piano again which now really sounds thin in comparison, does it?

It should be possible to find the right mixture of 1./2./3. for your purposes. I would be curious to hear some feedback and pass it on to Xaver.

Broadwave · Post by **Broadwave** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:01 pm

I'm not using the German Grand at all, there's just something about it I'm not keen on... It's great when played on it's own, but very "thick" when in a mix (even with a lot of EQ'ing).

The Japanese Grand is great, overall it's a much lighter sound, and I've found that if I flatten the EQ and add just the merest hint of chorus (which seems to give it a bit more lift), the result sits nicely in most of the mixes I'm working on.

Until the Kronos arrived I always used my CP80 sample set for piano, purely because I love the sound of it, as It's very versatile (IMHO), but the Japanese Grand is rapidly becoming my favourite...

...that is, until Korg give us a CP80 for SGX - I can dream, can't I?

aron · Post by **aron** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:50 pm

Thank you guys. Yes, I found the same thing last night. The german grand is very - thick sounding and muddy in a band context. Alone it sounds fine, but in a band setting - much too thick and not defined. I will try some EQ and the Japanese grand setting. Hopefully I can get something sounding great and post the program.

One trick I have used in the past is to plug in my S90ES (which I do like) and then try to match the EQ very closely. This has worked with my Roland Piano card and with my PC3.

Aron

Dany · Post by **Dany** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:26 pm

Load the EXs2 (OASYS-) pianos which are absolutely pefect for live situations and playing with a band over a PA!

I have tried to use Ivory-2 (on an OpenLabs MiKo), controlled via OASYS, in a band, resp. live setup, but it was immediately clear, that the EXs2 piano is much, much better suited for this purpose.

Ivory-2 gives you a perfect grand piano for studio applications, but it gives you also all the downsides of an acoustic piano in a live situation, while the EXs2 piano is like an idealized and perfect grand piano, especially tailored to work in a band context over PA speakers.

So I guess it is possibly the same situation with the SGX-1 pianos compared to the EXs2 pianos, as with Ivory-2 compared to the EXs2 pianos...

Just try the EXs2 piano on your Kronos, if you play with your band the next time and you will understand what I mean...
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aron · Post by **aron** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:51 pm

Thanks for the tip! I haven't checked, are all the pianos in the Kronos only SGX-1? For EP, I know that there are more than the EP engine.

Right now the S90ES piano is the best one I have for live. It seems to work the best over a wide variety of situations. It manages to sound good without being as thin as the Japanese grand in the Korg (I am assuming that the S90ES piano is a Japanese grand).

Chriskk · Post by **Chriskk** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:02 pm

Right now the S90ES piano is the best one I have for live. It seems to work the best over a wide variety of situations. It manages to sound good without being as thin as the Japanese grand in the Korg (I am assuming that the S90ES piano is a Japanese grand).

The S90ES has Yamaha S series grand piano samples (what else?). Yamaha grands are generally brighter and more cutting than Steinways. Of course, when it comes to classic pieces, Steinways are the king.

aron · Post by **aron** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:05 pm

> The S90ES has Yamaha S series grand piano samples (what else?). Yamaha grands are generally brighter and more cutting than Steinways. Of course, when it comes to classic pieces, Steinways are the king.

I agree, but what Japanese grand is the Korg referencing? Is it an S700 series grand?

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:08 pm

I bet it's a Yamaha C7.

aron · Post by **aron** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:08 pm

Never mind, I found it. C model:

http://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical- ... mode=model

Dany · Post by **Dany** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:17 pm

aron wrote:..., are all the pianos in the Kronos only SGX-1?

Just load the EXs2 Concert Grand Sample Expansion,into the RAM, which will not load with the factory preload settings on Kronos, so you have to load it extra, after switching-on the Kronos. Then load the EXs2 Concert Grand.PCG, which will load a bank with 8 HD-1 engine programs. (See Kronos Voice Name List, page 259)

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Bruce Lychee · Post by **Bruce Lychee** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 6:05 am

There is a reason Yamahas are so good in a band context and are the choice of many stage performers. Their piano and EPs always cut through the mix and sound great live. I think the Kronos German grand sounds better solo but I would definitely pick a Japanese variant for a live band setting. I can't even imagine how muddy the dark German grand would sound.

PinkFloydDudi · Post by **PinkFloydDudi** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:31 pm

Of course the German grand piano is thick and tough in a band mix - just like an actual german grand piano would be. This isn't a "problem" with the Kronos - this is the "fault" of a user who is selecting the wrong instrument to play on stage in a full band environment.

Can't say "yamahas are good in a band context" - because all that says to me is the Yamahas don't actually sound like the real piano - instead they sound like an EQ'd synth piano to be used to cut through the band.

Despite popular belief, not even the Kronos can help the ignorant musician. Select your patches wisely and I have a feeling you will have no problems cutting through any mix.

sani · Post by **sani** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:32 pm

I don't know if it can help you guys, since I don't own the Kronos, but I'd certainly look at the EQ. There is often very much eq on the low content, to give the sound a body. But playing with a band, this "body" often "fights" with other low frequency content in the band. I always put the low eq on my pianos for live use almost to zero. It may sound a little on the thin side while playing alone, but in the band it works definitely better. At least for me.

Bruce Lychee · Post by **Bruce Lychee** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:55 pm

PinkFloydDudi wrote:Of course the German grand piano is thick and tough in a band mix - just like an actual german grand piano would be. This isn't a "problem" with the Kronos - this is the "fault" of a user who is selecting the wrong instrument to play on stage in a full band environment.

Can't say "yamahas are good in a band context" - because all that says to me is the Yamahas don't actually sound like the real piano - instead they sound like an EQ'd synth piano to be used to cut through the band.

Despite popular belief, not even the Kronos can help the ignorant musician. Select your patches wisely and I have a feeling you will have no problems cutting through any mix.

I guess you have never heard a Steinway used in a live band setting? Of course the right sound needs to be chosen, but I don't think identifying something as a German grand necessarily precludes it's usefulness in a live setting. Furthermore, is it really necessary to be calling the OP ignorant for choosing the wrong patch?

As for Yamahas, regardless of what it tells you, the fact remains that their acoustic and digital pianos are used on many live stages. Given the fact that their digitals are sampled from their acoustics, I don't think it is a far stretch to think the underlying tonality is common and what makes them great in live settings. Or based on your logic, is the fact that Yamaha acoustics are widely used in band settings an indication that they don't sound like real pianos?

PinkFloydDudi · Post by **PinkFloydDudi** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:17 pm

Bruce Lychee wrote:
PinkFloydDudi wrote:Of course the German grand piano is thick and tough in a band mix - just like an actual german grand piano would be. This isn't a "problem" with the Kronos - this is the "fault" of a user who is selecting the wrong instrument to play on stage in a full band environment.

Can't say "yamahas are good in a band context" - because all that says to me is the Yamahas don't actually sound like the real piano - instead they sound like an EQ'd synth piano to be used to cut through the band.

Despite popular belief, not even the Kronos can help the ignorant musician. Select your patches wisely and I have a feeling you will have no problems cutting through any mix.
I guess you have never heard a Steinway used in a live band setting? Of course the right sound needs to be chosen, but I don't think identifying something as a German grand necessarily precludes it's usefulness in a live setting. Furthermore, is it really necessary to be calling the OP ignorant for choosing the wrong patch?

I have actually. I'm not talking about any german grand...I'm talking specifically of the german grand sound on the Kronos. It is not a sound condusive to coming through in a mix. That isn't a "problem" with the Kronos as was stated.

As to the word "ignorant", sorry if anyone takes offense to it but look up the actual definition of the word.
(–adjective
1. lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man.
2. lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact:)

Yes, if you picked the german grand sound as a piano sound to stick out through a full band - you lacked the knolwedge of picking the right sound.

As for Yamahas, regardless of what it tells you, the fact remains that their acoustic and digital pianos are used on many live stages. Given the fact that their digitals are sampled from their acoustics, I don't think it is a far stretch to think the underlying tonality is common and what makes them great in live settings. Or based on your logic, is the fact that Yamaha acoustics are widely used in band settings an indication that they don't sound like real pianos?

Dude, roland, Korg, yamaha, kurzweil - all are used on many stages. So your logic does nothing to show why yamahas would be better than any of the rest.
I see just as many other manufacturers for the accoustic side of things as I do Yamahas as well. So trying to say "I saw one (or a couple) on stage therefore they must be good" doesn't fly.
There is a reason these nice keyboards come with multiple piano sounds. It is up to the informed user to pick the right ones. Picking that thick grand sound to cut through a band isn't the most informed of choices don't you agree?

Again, my point is that it is not a "problem" that one doesn't cut through the mix. The "problem" is the user picking the wrong patch, not the keyboard, and not the sound.

The OP lists the ability of sounds to cut through a band as a problem. It most certainly is not...