Midi Implementation Chart

korg_nikos · Post by **korg_nikos** » Fri Sep 02, 2011 5:05 pm

Hi to all members,

I am an owner of Korg Pa80 arranger and several other Workstations of Korg.

It seems that Korg includes Midi Implementation Charts (Not Full However) within their User Guides for their Workstations (I can confirm that by my Workstations, Trinity Plus, Trinity V3, Triton Le, Triton Extreme) but i can't find anything for Pa Series.

As far as i know all manufacturers making Midi Instruments, in order to be compatible to the Midi Specifications have to issue Midi Implementation Charts and make them available to users.

Going back to the i-series i confirm that Korg had issued Full Midi Implementation Chart for the i30.

However after that Korg introduced Pa Series but there is no Midi Implementation Chart issued and available.

What kind of practice is that KORG?
I need to set Studio Applications where the user has no access to the Instrument Panel so i need to send Sysex or Control messages from software editors for controlling several instrument parameters.

Moreover i need to choose a new Pa arranger but before doing so i need to check their features by reading their Midi Implementation.

May someone let me know how may i have access to Midi Implementation Charts of Pa80, Pa800, Pa2X and Pa3X?

Regards to all

Thoraldus · Post by **Thoraldus** » Fri Sep 02, 2011 7:17 pm

Have a great day.

korg_nikos · Post by **korg_nikos** » Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:58 am

Dear Thoraldus,

Thank you for your input but it is obvious that you have not understood of what i am asking for or you don't have a clue about it.

I know that Korgpa, Korg USA and Korg Uk are great sources of information. Before posting here I visited their respective sites (as I always do) and also asked for info by local distributor of Korg. As you realize i am not the type of guy that does not read manuals.

The simple midi implementation charts linked by you given in a single page in the manual are NOT what i am looking for. Those do not include the information i need. As i have written in my first post of this thread i need the Full Midi Implementation
I am not interested in just a list of Transmitted and Recognized Data.

I need System Common Messages, System Realtime Messages, Universal System Exclusive Messages, Structure of Sysex, Sysex Code Lists, Data Dump Sysex and so on which defenitely don't fit in a single page

For example the Full Midi Implementation in case of Arranger Korg i30 was 97 pages.

If you would like to have a look at what a Full Midi Implementation Chart is, download the manual of Korg i30 (Visit : http://www.korgpa.com/pa_root/en/extra/ ... 30.html?en and scroll down), download, unzip the file and open i30 Midi Implementation.pdf

What I am looking for are the respective documents for Pa80, 800, 2X and 3X.

Rob Sherratt · Post by **Rob Sherratt** » Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:37 pm

Dear korg_nikos,

Just my opinion here, take it or leave it ...

You are correct in what you say about Manufacturers' obligation. Like others said, there is a one page MIDI Implementation chart in the appendix of all Korg Pa user guides, together with Program and Bank patch change details of sounds, styles, drum-kits etc that are supplementary to the MIDI implementation chart. I think Korg have done what is necessary to meet their obligation to other manufacturers.

You wrote that you need "System Common Messages, System Realtime Messages, Universal System Exclusive Messages, Structure of Sysex, Sysex Code Lists, Data Dump Sysex and so on."

Well, the Korg Pa series products claim to conform to the GM2 standard, so all the GM2 System Common Messages, GM2 System Real-time Messages, and GM2 Universal System Exclusive Messages defined in the standard should in theory be implemented, although it is a "grey area" about what is the minimum necessary implementation since there are so many "optional" parts to the standards. You can download the GM2 specifications here:

http://www.midi.org/techspecs/gm.php

I never tested my Pa2x to check if Korg implemented everything in the GM2 standards, but you can use something like the MIDI-OX Midi analyzer running on your PC if you want to check it all out and see what works and what does not. A long time ago I came to a conclusion that my M3 had a very full MIDI SysEx implementation, whereas my Pa2x did not.

I see you are also asking for the structure of other Sysex, Sysex Code Lists, Data Dump Sysex, etc. What makes you think the Korg Pa series implements any other Sysex capabilities apart from those in the GM2 standard? The fact that there is no documentation on this should convince us that no proprietary Sysex capability is present. There is no advertised functionality that would need it, is there?

Of course, when Korg launched the M3 they designed a full editor to run on the PC, and there is a full SysEx implementation for the M3 that supports the editor functionality, data dumps and all. But nothing like that has ever been announced for the Korg Pa series, so I conclude there is no extended SysEx documentation ... because there is no extended SysEx implementation ... because remote editing on a PC or MAC is not an advertised feature.

Undoubtedly, in the days of the Korg i-series including the i-30, there was lots of money floating around that allowed the developers to implement a full set of SysEx functionality for supporting external PC and MAC based editors etc. But times are hard, there is a world recession, and I expect Korg decided that in the Pa series this would be an area of unjustified expense.

Also a lot of piracy of sounds and styles has occurred e.g. from the i-series, and in the Pa-series the internal file formats are all encrypted and protected so no-one can decode them. Many have tried to produce editors, no-one has succeeded.

Regards,
Rob

Thoraldus · Post by **Thoraldus** » Mon Sep 05, 2011 6:51 pm

Thanks Rob. I agree with all you have posted. Was going to make a similar post but the 'haven't got a clue' bit dissuaded me.

korg_nikos · Post by **korg_nikos** » Mon Sep 05, 2011 7:06 pm

Thank you Rob, your post is clear enough. I just could not believe that Korg would reach at a point such so as not to allow them to issue a Full Midi Implementation chart.

Thoraldus wrote:Thanks Rob. I agree with all you have posted. Was going to make a similar post but the 'haven't got a clue' bit dissuaded me.

Thoraldus what i have written was... "...you have not understood what i am asking for or you don't have a clue about it.
I am sorry if i was misunderstood.

Sam CA · Post by **Sam CA** » Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:54 pm

Thoraldus wrote:Thanks Rob. I agree with all you have posted. Was going to make a similar post but the 'haven't got a clue' bit dissuaded me.

Sometimes Google Translator is to blame. Sometimes, people tend to translate phrases from their native language directly into English which doesn't work real well. I don't think he wanted to say what he said.

Rob, great to hear from you. I was just reading your forum this morning, and looks like everything is going well for you.

Rob Sherratt · Post by **Rob Sherratt** » Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:26 pm

Assyrianpianist wrote:Rob, great to hear from you. I was just reading your forum this morning, and looks like everything is going well for you.

Hi Sam,

Thank you for your message. Yes, we are getting ready to ship the first Groove X-R's from the factory on 18th Sept. Sharp and I have a trip to the Tyrol area in Italy next week to help Domenico with final testing and boxing of the units. As you might expect, I am bleary eyed with testing and writing documentation for the last 3 months.

Best regards,
Rob

Thoraldus · Post by **Thoraldus** » Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:13 am

korg_nikos wrote: ... Thoraldus what i have written was... "...you have not understood what i am asking for or you don't have a clue about it.
I am sorry if i was misunderstood.

OK ... fair enough. By the way, many years ago (early 1980's) I was on the manufacturer's committee (with many others) that worked on the first MIDI standard. Anyone here remember the JX-3P?

Cheers Mate!

Thoraldus · Post by **Thoraldus** » Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:28 am

Rob Sherratt wrote:
Assyrianpianist wrote:Rob, great to hear from you. I was just reading your forum this morning, and looks like everything is going well for you.
Hi Sam,

Thank you for your message. Yes, we are getting ready to ship the first Groove X-R's from the factory on 18th Sept. Sharp and I have a trip to the Tyrol area in Italy next week to help Domenico with final testing and boxing of the units. As you might expect, I am bleary eyed with testing and writing documentation for the last 3 months.

Best regards,
Rob

Fantastic Rob! Just looked over the specs and can't stop drooling.

X-R is high on my 'want list' now.

cheers,
Rick

Rob Sherratt · Post by **Rob Sherratt** » Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:32 am

Thoraldus wrote:Fantastic Rob! Just looked over the specs and can't stop drooling. X-R is high on my 'want list' now.

cheers,
Rick

Hi Rick,

I count myself privileged to meet you, someone who has worked on the MIDI standards. Many congratulations for your involvement in something that transformed the electronic music industry. In case you are interested, we are currently working on MIDI and Digital Audio transmission over Ethernet LAN links, an area where only de-facto standards exist at the moment. We are hoping to adopt a solution called NetJACK2 which you may be familiar with:

http://trac.jackaudio.org/wiki/WalkThro ... r/NetJack2

Once we have the high speed network infrastructure for MIDI and Digital Audio in place, we will be defining a number of MIDI SysEx bulk data transfer messages to allow upload and download of the content of the Groove XR. We hope 3rd party developers will want to build PC and MAC applications, although to some extent that is not so urgent because we have a full desktop based GUI environment supported directly from the Groove XR.

Incidentally, I still have my Korg Pa2x and M3-88 and I'm currently using the M3-88 as the keyboard controller for the Groove XR. I also use the XR as a style expander for the Pa2x. Unfortunately most of the buttons on the Pa2x do not generate external MIDI codes so its pretty useless trying to use it as a controller keyboard to operate the style engine on the XR. However by creating a MIDI map on the Pa2x for use with an external sequencer, then sending all the real-time Pa2x style data to the Groove XR, it transforms the Pa2x into something that is CD/DVD quality.

Anyway, my apology to you if in any way I have hijacked the thread you started. If you want to continue chatting about the Groove XR then you are very welcome to join our user forum at http://corcyraglobal.com

Best regards,
Rob

Sam CA · Post by **Sam CA** » Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:53 pm

Thoraldus wrote:By the way, many years ago (early 1980's) I was on the manufacturer's committee (with many others) that worked on the first MIDI standard. Anyone here remember the JX-3P?

That's awesome. Midi is still going strong...

Thoraldus · Post by **Thoraldus** » Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:41 pm

Rob,

Thank you for the kind words. I'll see you over there.

Sam,

Who knew?

korg_nikos · Post by **korg_nikos** » Wed Sep 07, 2011 8:03 am

Just a simple question,

Lets suppose that i have a Pa80 or (Pa2X, Pa3X) with a faulty Floppy Drive (or Media USB etc).

Those instruments do not have a "Dump All" command in their Menu so the only way to get the Data out would be via Midi after sending them a Request for Dump.

May you please let me know where i can find this message so i can send it to the instrument? Shouldn't Korg give this to the users?

Thoraldus · Post by **Thoraldus** » Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:10 pm

korg_nikos wrote:Just a simple question,

Lets suppose that i have a Pa80 or (Pa2X, Pa3X) with a faulty Floppy Drive (or Media USB etc).

Those instruments do not have a "Dump All" command in their Menu so the only way to get the Data out would be via Midi after sending them a Request for Dump.

May you please let me know where i can find this message so i can send it to the instrument? Shouldn't Korg give this to the users?

I would humbly suggest that you would have already saved your data as part of a rigorous back up policy. You would then have your machine repaired and then restore your data as normal.