Kronos 88 and RH3 keyboard faulty

QuiRobinez · Post by **QuiRobinez** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:30 pm

ok, today i've experienced this behaviour also on my 88 keys.

I was playing the piano in an Init combi (only piano's) on 1GH. Then it was easy to reproduce. Then i've tried the same on the Kronos German Grand Program, and it was much harder to reproduce only on the C1 and E1 note i could hear the note cutting effect. Not every time, but only when i used the Damper pedal.

Personally i don't think it's a problem of the RH3 keyboard. To me it sounds more like not playing the sample completely from the SSD. It sounds like it's start to trigger that sample and then suddenly stops (out of processing power or disk bandwidth overload?). I can not reproduce this on any of the other EXI models.

so:
It doesn't happen very often, but when i use the damper pedal and lots of notes then on certain notes i will hear this.

kelley2000 · Post by **kelley2000** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 7:41 pm

Well, you can add me to the list of people having this problem. I've waited since July for my 73 and now this. Very bummed and hope it's just a software glitch.

PinkFloydDudi · Post by **PinkFloydDudi** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 7:57 pm

kelley2000 wrote:Well, you can add me to the list of people having this problem. I've waited since July for my 73 and now this. Very bummed and hope it's just a software glitch.

If it were hardware it would be seen across multiple engines. So things look good for it being software-related. Hope Korg gets on this ASAP.

Rookwood · Post by **Rookwood** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:03 pm

This happens on several engines on my unit. The MIDI output shows the double-triggering where the second trigger is a super-low velocity value and that triggers the mute sample.

I can play Ivory II from my Kronos and get a similar effect. I can feel the hammer bounce in my fingers. Doubtful that a software fix should be applicable to my unit, but there may be others where it might be helpful.

PinkFloydDudi wrote:
kelley2000 wrote:Well, you can add me to the list of people having this problem. I've waited since July for my 73 and now this. Very bummed and hope it's just a software glitch.
If it were hardware it would be seen across multiple engines. So things look good for it being software-related. Hope Korg gets on this ASAP.

PinkFloydDudi · Post by **PinkFloydDudi** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:14 pm

Rookwood wrote:This happens on several engines on my unit. The MIDI output shows the double-triggering where the second trigger is a super-low velocity value and that triggers the mute sample.

I can play Ivory II from my Kronos and get a similar effect. I can feel the hammer bounce in my fingers. Doubtful that a software fix should be applicable to my unit, but there may be others where it might be helpful.

PinkFloydDudi wrote:
kelley2000 wrote:Well, you can add me to the list of people having this problem. I've waited since July for my 73 and now this. Very bummed and hope it's just a software glitch.
If it were hardware it would be seen across multiple engines. So things look good for it being software-related. Hope Korg gets on this ASAP.

I had not seen anyone post about it happening on other engines within the kronos. The fact that it happens through Ivory does not mean it can't still be software.
If it is hardware, that would be a big problem.

Rookwood · Post by **Rookwood** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:18 pm

It can still be software, but Korg didn't jump to that conclusion and want to have my board back for an investigation. The general impression they gave me was that it was the hardware, based on their line of questioning, my video, the MIDI output and how my unit responded on all the other patches from other engines.

PinkFloydDudi wrote:
Rookwood wrote:This happens on several engines on my unit. The MIDI output shows the double-triggering where the second trigger is a super-low velocity value and that triggers the mute sample.

I can play Ivory II from my Kronos and get a similar effect. I can feel the hammer bounce in my fingers. Doubtful that a software fix should be applicable to my unit, but there may be others where it might be helpful.

PinkFloydDudi wrote: If it were hardware it would be seen across multiple engines. So things look good for it being software-related. Hope Korg gets on this ASAP.
I had not seen anyone post about it happening on other engines within the kronos. The fact that it happens through Ivory does not mean it can't still be software.
If it is hardware, that would be a big problem.

PinkFloydDudi · Post by **PinkFloydDudi** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:22 pm

Rookwood wrote:It can still be software, but Korg didn't jump to that conclusion and want to have my board back for an investigation. The general impression they gave me was that it was the hardware, based on their line of questioning, my video, the MIDI output and how my unit responded on all the other patches from other engines.

PinkFloydDudi wrote:
Rookwood wrote:This happens on several engines on my unit. The MIDI output shows the double-triggering where the second trigger is a super-low velocity value and that triggers the mute sample.

I can play Ivory II from my Kronos and get a similar effect. I can feel the hammer bounce in my fingers. Doubtful that a software fix should be applicable to my unit, but there may be others where it might be helpful.

I had not seen anyone post about it happening on other engines within the kronos. The fact that it happens through Ivory does not mean it can't still be software.
If it is hardware, that would be a big problem.

Very interesting. Certainly keep me/us up to date on any progress. Of all the issues people have had, I'd say this might be the most serious as it would very much impact performance/recordings.

Rookwood · Post by **Rookwood** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:24 pm

I will absolutely update this thread as I get more info. Korg USA has been very responsive to my calls and emails - I mentioned this in a previous post.

PinkFloydDudi wrote:
Rookwood wrote:It can still be software, but Korg didn't jump to that conclusion and want to have my board back for an investigation. The general impression they gave me was that it was the hardware, based on their line of questioning, my video, the MIDI output and how my unit responded on all the other patches from other engines.

PinkFloydDudi wrote: I had not seen anyone post about it happening on other engines within the kronos. The fact that it happens through Ivory does not mean it can't still be software.
If it is hardware, that would be a big problem.
Very interesting. Certainly keep me/us up to date on any progress. Of all the issues people have had, I'd say this might be the most serious as it would very much impact performance/recordings.

kron · Post by **kron** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:44 pm

Rookwood wrote:This happens on several engines on my unit. The MIDI output shows the double-triggering where the second trigger is a super-low velocity value and that triggers the mute sample.

I can play Ivory II from my Kronos and get a similar effect. I can feel the hammer bounce in my fingers. Doubtful that a software fix should be applicable to my unit, but there may be others where it might be helpful.

PinkFloydDudi wrote:
kelley2000 wrote:Well, you can add me to the list of people having this problem. I've waited since July for my 73 and now this. Very bummed and hope it's just a software glitch.
If it were hardware it would be seen across multiple engines. So things look good for it being software-related. Hope Korg gets on this ASAP.

I second this observation..

aron · Post by **aron** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:25 pm

The MIDI output shows the double-triggering where the second trigger is a super-low velocity value and that triggers the mute sample.

I would bet on hardware from what little I have read. It's probably "fixable" with a software update. Hopefully Korg can address this.

Just because it doesn't happen with other engines could just mean that the engines handle these low value velocity notes in a different fashion.

PinkFloydDudi · Post by **PinkFloydDudi** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:27 pm

aron wrote:
The MIDI output shows the double-triggering where the second trigger is a super-low velocity value and that triggers the mute sample.
I would bet on hardware from what little I have read. It's probably "fixable" with a software update. Hopefully Korg can address this.

Just because it doesn't happen with other engines could just mean that the engines handle these low value velocity notes in a different fashion.

I don't know if I would like a bandaid to address this hardware problem via software. Assuming you are implying the software look for this occurance and fix it. I'm just wondering what type of implications that would have? For example what if I did want to quickly play another soft note after the first note?
I'd be very curious how they implement that and worry about causing more issues than they solved!

outjet · Post by **outjet** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:33 pm

Rookwood wrote:This happens on several engines on my unit. The MIDI output shows the double-triggering where the second trigger is a super-low velocity value and that triggers the mute sample.

I can play Ivory II from my Kronos and get a similar effect. I can feel the hammer bounce in my fingers. Doubtful that a software fix should be applicable to my unit, but there may be others where it might be helpful.

Very interesting. I wanted to check out the MIDI output but thanks for actually doing it. That sounds right to me too -- from my experience you can almost feel the key bounce when things get screwed up. It seems to be more in how the note is physically played instead of what patch/engine you are on.

To support your theory, here's the MIDI output from the first blocked note mentioned in my earlier
post http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... 692#426692
and video http://4g.outjet.com/kronoskeyfail.html

(*Note - I hid the MIDI control output, which also showed the pedal depressing at the top of this measure)

The first two notes of the triad show being held for 000.214 and 000.205, vs the note that held for 000.043, followed up by the 000.187 quiet follow-up.

Rookwood · Post by **Rookwood** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:48 pm

Yep - the same behavior I saw when I recorded the MIDI out into an external sequencer and looked at the data.

I haven't really dug into the onboard sequencer, but there it all is in your picture, clear as anything.

Obviously, you can easily miss this on a string pad, but I can hear the problem on harpsichord, organ and synth patches that have immediate attack w/no release.

outjet wrote:
Rookwood wrote:This happens on several engines on my unit. The MIDI output shows the double-triggering where the second trigger is a super-low velocity value and that triggers the mute sample.

I can play Ivory II from my Kronos and get a similar effect. I can feel the hammer bounce in my fingers. Doubtful that a software fix should be applicable to my unit, but there may be others where it might be helpful.
Very interesting. I wanted to check out the MIDI output but thanks for actually doing it. That sounds right to me too -- from my experience you can almost feel the key bounce when things get screwed up. It seems to be more in how the note is physically played instead of what patch/engine you are on.

To support your theory, here's the MIDI output from the first blocked note mentioned in my earlier
post http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... 692#426692
and video http://4g.outjet.com/kronoskeyfail.html

The first two notes of the triad show being held for 000.214 and 000.205, vs the note that held for 000.043, followed up by the 000.187 quiet follow-up.

aron · Post by **aron** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:01 pm

For example what if I did want to quickly play another soft note after the first note?

I understand what you are saying, but things like this - for example "bounce" from pedals etc... are usually addressed from software. Maybe the time interval is so short that under practical use it should be filtered??

kron · Post by **kron** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 7:21 am

Alright folks, my dealer didn't hear from KORG within the 48 hours lead times so the K88 is going back.

Now I have options to get a replacement or a refund - this is REALLY tricky. I don't want overheads if the new one comes with the same problem. Sometimes I think I'd rather not buy it (and continue to be a happy user of Oasys + VIs for P/EPs) and buy a Numa Nero or LMK4+ to complement my O76 synth action keys.. Any suggestions please?