User Scale in Combi

shahab · Post by **shahab** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:16 pm

Hi there,

When I want to set one of my combi sounds to a custom scale (let's say arabic), I can't do it other than by editing each program in the combi and assigning the same scale to each of the programs, then selecting the "Use Program Scale" checkbox in each timbre in a combi.

I WAS WONDERING IF KRONOS IS THE SAME????? COULD SOME ONE PLEASE GIVE ME SOME ADVICE?

Ksynth · Post by **Ksynth** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:37 pm

I am not 100% sure about doing that on the Kronos directly but I'm fairly sure you can do your own scales using the Kronos Karma editing software available through Karma-labs.com

The forthcoming free Korg Kronos editor may enable that too.

Anyone know about this?

MarPabl · Post by **MarPabl** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:27 pm

You have two options:
- Option 1. First, you must define the user scale for the PROGRAM and write it. When you're on COMBI, you go to: P2 (Timbre Parameters), P2-3 (Pitch) and set "Use Program's Scale" for the programs you wish.
- Option 2. On COMBI, you go to: P2 (Timbre Parameters), P2-3 (Pitch) and set Type (on section Scale) and Key to the one you wish to use.

This is on page 450 of the Parameter Guide (English)

popmann · Post by **popmann** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:40 pm

I've had situations (4 vector bowing as example) where setting it to just intonation via your option 2 does NOT adjust all the programs. I figure somewhere there's some sort of manual tuning set that's overriding...haven't gotten in to troubleshoot yet, because frankly-no printed manual means my normal MO isn't possible-run into problem-kick back on the couch and read up.

BasariStudios · Post by **BasariStudios** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:12 pm

Shahab, its easy dont worry, you can Edit firs the User Scale in Global and
make it Hijaz, Turki, Sha3bi, Kurdi, Bhayati or whatever, then you can use
the same one in Combi or Program, in both all you have to do is Sellec the
speciffic Scale, you can have 16 of them.

shahab · Post by **shahab** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:50 am

BasariStudios wrote:Shahab, its easy dont worry, you can Edit firs the User Scale in Global and
make it Hijaz, Turki, Sha3bi, Kurdi, Bhayati or whatever, then you can use
the same one in Combi or Program, in both all you have to do is Sellec the
speciffic Scale, you can have 16 of them.

Nedim,

Is this on KRONOS you're talking about or OASYS? Because I know as a matter of fact it doesn't work that easy on the OASYS. I need to go each individual program on the combi and set them to read my user scale.
I just want a way around it... if it's not doable on KRONOS either, then I won't buy it...

BasariStudios · Post by **BasariStudios** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:05 am

Thats o ANY Korg Workstation, since the days of Trinity i think. You fix your
User Scale in Global then you have to Options, you either apply it in Program
Mode then ReApply in Combi per Track or go straight to Combi and apply it to all.

shahab · Post by **shahab** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:09 am

BasariStudios wrote:Thats o ANY Korg Workstation, since the days of Trinity i think. You fix your
User Scale in Global then you have to Options, you either apply it in Program
Mode then ReApply in Combi per Track or go straight to Combi and apply it to all.

Nedim,

I'm not sure if the second option would work... How can I go to Combi and apply it to all? This was my initial question; how can I apply my user scale to a Combi without the need of going to each individual Program...
What you are suggesting (set in the Global and then apply to the Combi) is the answer to my question; but I'm afraid it doesn't work, unless you tell me step by step how to do it

BasariStudios · Post by **BasariStudios** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 5:15 am

Its very easy bro, fix the Scale in Global then go to Combi, Timbres/Parameters
and go under the Pitch Subpage, in there you'll see the Equal Tempered Scale,
in there you can change to User, Arabic or any other...that affects the whole Combi.

danatkorg · Post by **danatkorg** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:07 am

popmann wrote:I've had situations (4 vector bowing as example) where setting it to just intonation via your option 2 does NOT adjust all the programs. I figure somewhere there's some sort of manual tuning set that's overriding...haven't gotten in to troubleshoot yet, because frankly-no printed manual means my normal MO isn't possible-run into problem-kick back on the couch and read up.

I just looked into 4 Vector Bowing. You're right that there's another tuning parameter interfering with the scales - and it's actually on a per-Oscillator basis within a few of the Programs.

A couple of these Programs use a tricky technique to alter the multisample keymap, in which the Oscillator is transposed by a semitone or more, and then fine tune is used to compensate back to the standard pitch. For example, Transpose might be +4 semitones, and Tune would be set to -400 cents. This shifts the keymap by 4 semitones, but keeps the pitch correct.

However - if Scale is set to something other than Equal Temperament, this technique causes a problem. The scale is applied as per the Transpose setting - which is what you'd want if the oscillator was actually playing at an interval to the root pitch (in fifths, for instance). However, the scale doesn't pay attention to Tune. The result is that the note plays at the original pitch, but has the scale's pitch correction for the note at the Transpose value. For instance, in the case above, the note C would use the scale's tuning offset for the note E (4 semitones up). This would cause things to be out of tune.

The OASYS worked this way; probably other Korg keyboards did as well. It seems to me that it would be better if the Tune value was taken into account along with Transpose, and I've now entered a feature request along those lines.

For now, as a workaround, if you notice that scales aren't working as you'd expect them to, check to see if this technique is being used, and edit the sound as necessary. Note that Tune may not always be set to compensate completely. In some cases, you might see a little detuning happening at the same time; for instance, Transpose set to +1, and Tune set to -97, with the result that the sound plays 3 cents sharp. To change such a sound to work well with alternate scales, you'd set Transpose to 0 and Tune to +03.

Hope this helps,

Dan

Edit: corrected grammar.

BasariStudios · Post by **BasariStudios** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:56 pm

Yes Dan, i forgot to mention that, it is in the other Korg WS's as well, well
i know as far back as the Tritons at least. A lot of Programs are not set to
0 Tuning or Transpose...a lot of them are for example at -3 Transpose and
300 Tuning or vice versa...

shahab · Post by **shahab** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:28 pm

Dan,

Thanks for your post mate; but i've already done these adjustments and still have some problems. Sme combis are ok but some of them i have no idea why they don't work. I.e. "INT-A 102 Oct. GrandLegato Strings" does not work

i adjusted all the tunes and transposes as it has a few of the programs transposed +/- and tuned opposite to nutralise them. I set them all to 0 but still have problems. A few of them are still detuned...
I don't know how to fix it. Any advice????

danatkorg · Post by **danatkorg** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:50 pm

shahab wrote:Dan,

Thanks for your post mate; but i've already done these adjustments and still have some problems. Sme combis are ok but some of them i have no idea why they don't work. I.e. "INT-A 102 Oct. GrandLegato Strings" does not work i adjusted all the tunes and transposes as it has a few of the programs transposed +/- and tuned opposite to nutralise them. I set them all to 0 but still have problems. A few of them are still detuned...
I don't know how to fix it. Any advice????

Did you check the Oscillator settings within the Programs, or just the Timbre settings in the Combi?

- Dan