Roland's and Yamaha's plans to surpass the Kronos?

iixorbiusii · Post by **iixorbiusii** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:11 pm

aron wrote:The thing that Yamaha realized is that most people want great sounds. So they did that -

I think you're right - The masses are Preset Bunnies anyway (I include myself to a degree in that remark).

JPWC · Post by **JPWC** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:15 pm

maybe the reason I have so many keyboards is that I too am a "PRESET BUNNY"

just hopping for the next big thing.

shawnhar · Post by **shawnhar** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:54 pm

I feel like modern "rompler" instruments (including Motif but also Korg instruments such as the M3) get an unfairly bad rap. Sure, many people use them just to play presets, but these instruments are capable of so much more! I don't understand where all the "it's not a proper synth" hating comes from. It's not an analog synth, for sure, but (unlike early romplers which pretty much just played back PCM data as-is) modern incarnations of this tech have powerful filters and modulation capabilities that enable a wide range of original synth programming. No oscillator sync or PWM, 'tis true, but on the other hand even a few megabytes ROM offers hundreds of choices of source oscillator timbre, as opposed to just a handful of waveforms on a classic analog

I think it's quite unfair to dismiss these instruments as not-synths or just-for-presets.

I also agree that Yamaha has no particular reason to panic or shake things up right now. I love my Kronos, and personally find the Motif uninspiring, but fact is Yamaha are doing rather well and I can't see what motivation they would have to change what is obviously a winning formula!

aron · Post by **aron** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:03 pm

> I love my Kronos, and personally find the Motif uninspiring, but fact is Yamaha are doing rather well and I can't see what motivation they would have to change what is obviously a winning formula!

I love my Kronos, but my S90ES is a fantastic instrument. I just wish it had twice the polyphony. I totally agree with you. It may be a rompler but I can program lots of sounds with it.

iixorbiusii · Post by **iixorbiusii** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:09 pm

shawnhar wrote:... I think it's quite unfair to dismiss these instruments as not-synths or just-for-presets...

I know what you mean - that's not what I meant to convey a few lines above; what I meant was many people (dare I say most

) don't really get into the depths or capabilities of what their keyboard can do with a patch. Maybe because there are so many great sounds in there already, which satisfies most tastes. Back in the 90's and especially the 80's, you really needed to know how to program your synth because there would only have been a handful of on-board sounds available, and ROM carts cost a fortune ...

michelkeijzers · Post by **michelkeijzers** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:11 pm

shawnhar wrote:I feel like modern "rompler" instruments (including Motif but also Korg instruments such as the M3) get an unfairly bad rap. Sure, many people use them just to play presets, but these instruments are capable of so much more! I don't understand where all the "it's not a proper synth" hating comes from. It's not an analog synth, for sure, but (unlike early romplers which pretty much just played back PCM data as-is) modern incarnations of this tech have powerful filters and modulation capabilities that enable a wide range of original synth programming. No oscillator sync or PWM, 'tis true, but on the other hand even a few megabytes ROM offers hundreds of choices of source oscillator timbre, as opposed to just a handful of waveforms on a classic analog I think it's quite unfair to dismiss these instruments as not-synths or just-for-presets.

I also agree that Yamaha has no particular reason to panic or shake things up right now. I love my Kronos, and personally find the Motif uninspiring, but fact is Yamaha are doing rather well and I can't see what motivation they would have to change what is obviously a winning formula!

The M3 and Motif are synthesizers and definitely not only preset 'machines', but the Kronos is much more special since it has many more engines. Since it is only a bit more expensive than a Motif, if you can choose only one for most people the choice is not difficult.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:15 pm

shawnhar wrote: I don't understand where all the "it's not a proper synth" hating comes from. It's not an analog synth, for sure, but (unlike early romplers which pretty much just played back PCM data as-is) modern incarnations of this tech have powerful filters and modulation capabilities that enable a wide range of original synth programming. No oscillator sync or PWM, 'tis true, but on the other hand even a few megabytes ROM offers hundreds of choices of source oscillator timbre, as opposed to just a handful of waveforms on a classic analog I think it's quite unfair to dismiss these instruments as not-synths or just-for-presets.

That's a good point. As long as a board has multi-waveform LFO (with rate and depth) and ADSR envelopes, which can all be applied to pitch, filter, and amplitude, the board can basically do all the fundamental synth stuff. For a given type of sound, you might miss some other feature (I don't think romplers typically have filters capable of self-oscillation, for example), but there's still a lot of synth capability there. I think what's often missing, more than anything else, is some kind of interface that lends itself to operating it in that manner. Other than that, I think "VA" synths may also be tweaked to better attempt to capture the "sound" of analog synthesis... but even that is a subjective thing. An analog ARP sounded different from an analog Moog, after all.

shawnhar · Post by **shawnhar** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:47 pm

Scott wrote:I think what's often missing, more than anything else, is some kind of interface that lends itself to operating it in that manner.

Very true. The more knobby an instrument is, the more it invites you to grab hold and start tweaking!

Nothing quite like dedicated filter and envelope control knobs to get a new user used to the idea that presets can be just a starting point for heading off in whole new directions of your own.

Kronos is kinda in between in this regard. It has plenty of knobs, but also so many modes and different functions that it takes a bit of learning to work out exactly what any given knob will do when you turn it.

Mystic38 · Post by **Mystic38** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:04 pm

Hate??? Methinks you need some balance in your life and a sense of perspective of what is important in this world..

Morshu wrote:I hate all the synth manufacturers that remain with a burning passion, aside from 4 select companies, and those companies are: Moog, Nord, Korg, Access

Just about everyone else, is just not as good anymore, and i just hate how they can make a crappy workstation and sell more of that than their Synths that are actually good. <_<

I can predict that Roland will go bankrupt. Yamaha will Remain forever. Moog will remain forever. Korg will release an analog synth in the near future and gain more buisness. Access will be around forever. And Nord, will stop making synths and be around for a while( and i wont like them in the future if they do that <_<).

Vlad_77 · Post by **Vlad_77** » Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:42 pm

Wow Morshu,

You didn't specifically mention Kurzweil. May I ask why you hate them? Actually, I am rather confused even with your hatred of Korg. Perhaps I am on some bad meds but Kronos isn't exactly the Yamaha Motif paradigm, i.e, re-releasing the same product with added ROM.

Ahimsa,
Vlad

aron · Post by **aron** » Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:46 pm

> Other than that, I think "VA" synths may also be tweaked to better attempt to capture the "sound" of analog synthesis... but even that is a subjective thing.

Yep. But if an instrument sounds good, it is. I really don't care much whether it is a VA or not. Yamaha has a lot of great sounds in the Motif and people vote by using them.

l8rdood · Post by **l8rdood** » Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:49 pm

Vlad_77 wrote:I don't think your opinion is ignorant at all Jeebustrain especially in light of the fact that you have played every iteration of Yamaha. I really am convinced that it goes back to the notion that Yamaha has a secure market position that I believe the other three big manufacturers don't have.

Yamaha DID have some great synths in the past though. And what's cool about Kronos is that we get a DX-7 for free in MOD-7. I t does make me curious though as to why Yamaha didn't integrate their older innovative synths WITH the Motif series. It seems to me at least that at the time it would have been real gravy.

I do like Roland keyboards as evidenced by my current rig list and as I stated the next possible additions are either a JP 80 or a V-Synth GT. I find more and more that I am leaning to the GT because of its experimental nature. While I am certain that Supernatural is very cool thanks to the balanced reviews of RonF and Bruce Lychee, I really do have enough instrument emulations in my existing gear. To me at least, there is almost a mythic quality about the V-Synth. I have talked to really die-hard Roland fans - and I mean HARD CORE they will play nothing ELSE but Roland - state that the V-Synth was the last real synth Roland produced.

Truth be told though I have barely gotten into the depths of Kronos. The extra sound banks with the impending OS update will allow me to explore more fully and just maybe my G.A.S. for a V-Synth might be alleviated!

Ahimsa,
Vlad

" I t does make me curious though as to why Yamaha didn't integrate their older innovative synths WITH the Motif series. It seems to me at least that at the time it would have been real gravy."

I agree totally! I have the motif ES rack & have both the AN & DX cards inside. Supposedly, the DX card "is" the brain of a DX-7. So the only way to get the true DX sounds(not samples or getting the actual instruments) was going to this option. Of course I am going to get opinions on this. Regardless, that is why I keep this version of the rack. BTW.....if anyone already owns the V-Synth GT, unless you have lots of disposable money, you may want to pass for now on the Jup-80. I have the GT and since I got a killer deal for the J-80($2600 total!), I bought it. To me, it is more or less a rework of the GT(at least in looks). Just my opinion....

Bruce Lychee · Post by **Bruce Lychee** » Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:06 pm

l8rdood wrote: BTW.....if anyone already owns the V-Synth GT, unless you have lots of disposable money, you may want to pass for now on the Jup-80. I have the GT and since I got a killer deal for the J-80($2600 total!), I bought it. To me, it is more or less a rework of the GT(at least in looks). Just my opinion....

The V GT and Jupiter are completely different beasts. I have both. They look nothing alike and are really designed with different purposes in mind. After working with the Jupiter for the past 5 months there is no way I would say it is a rework of the V GT. It is certainly an advancement of some of the technology introduced in the V, but it is really an entirely different instrument.

l8rdood · Post by **l8rdood** » Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:19 pm

Serious?? They look nothing alike? Aside from using "Registration" & some refinements, I compared the synths sounds from both keyboards. I still gravitate toward the GT. especially when the GT is booted into analog mode. I also keep the GT because of the vocoder, which I love. To each, their own opinion....

Bruce Lychee · Post by **Bruce Lychee** » Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:25 pm

l8rdood wrote:Serious?? They look nothing alike? Aside from using "Registration" & some refinements, I compared the synths sounds from both keyboards. I still gravitate toward the GT. especially when the GT is booted into analog mode. I also keep the GT because of the vocoder, which I love. To each, their own opinion....

Well other than black/silver scheme, the use of an LCD and a few shared parts, the layout is completely different. The V has an abundance of physical controls for sound design and the Jupiter has limited controls geared around sound selection. Plus, registrations are central to the layout of the Jupiter and have nothing to do with the V. They share some sonic similarities because they are both Roland, but you can do very different things with each instrument. The Jupiter was not meant to replace the V so you have good reason to keep the V.

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Roland's and Yamaha's plans to surpass the Kronos?

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